Discussion:
Security Cameras Not Useful for Burglary
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Boris
2017-01-31 19:16:52 UTC
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David Kaye,

I just now saw your post here:

<o4q4g4$u39$***@dont-email.me>

It was in reply to the U.S. suing D-Link for lax security relating to
their security cameras.

I own a short term rental home which was recently burglarized by a group
that booked the property for three days a week ago. When they left, the
maid service went in to clean, and immediately called us to tell us two
TVs were missing. I went to the home and found MUCH more was stolen.
The police came, as did the CSI guys. One of the burglars left his
driver's license on the master bedroom night stand. Unbelievable! The
police took it as evidence. I looked up the man's name on Facebook, and
the telephone number on Facebook was the same number that he called from
to book the home. They took away much more evidence, such as empty beer
cans, soda bottles, and tooth brushes they left behind, to test for
fingerprints back at their lab, but pretty much said that even with all
this evidence, since no one was hurt, the police report will probably
just sit in a file cabinet. That's what I expected, but I had to report
for insurance purposes.

I do not have security cameras at the home, and this is the first time
I've had a burglary.

I was curious why in your post you said, "I tell my security camera
clients that cameras are useful for employee theft and misconduct, but
not all that useful for burglary or even robbery unless they know the
culprits."

I keep thinking of how to better protect the home from burglaries
committed by fraudulent renters. When I think about security cameras, I
keep coming back to what you said..."...not all that useful for
burglary...". In my particular case, it appears the burglar could be
found, if the police care to investigate, but still, the burglary
happened and my belongins are gone.

Do you have any clients with needs similar to mine? If so, what do you
advise?

Thanks
David Kaye
2017-02-01 00:27:06 UTC
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Post by Boris
I was curious why in your post you said, "I tell my security camera
clients that cameras are useful for employee theft and misconduct, but
not all that useful for burglary or even robbery unless they know the
culprits."
My answer is contained in the statement. If you don't know the robber or
burglar you can't do much. In your case you knew the burglar in the sense
that you had the phone number he used to book the house. I'm talking about
a random burlgarly or robbery, which is a far more frequent occurrence.
Post by Boris
I keep thinking of how to better protect the home from burglaries
committed by fraudulent renters.
Two answers: (1) Don't rent to fraudulent renters. Instead, rent to
friends. (2) Don't leave anything valuable in the house. Do they HAVE to
have TVs present? If you're going to use your home as a motel think of it
as a motel -- bolt the lamps to the tables, etc. Remember, you're in
BUSINESS, so treat your home as you would a business. I know that most
Airbnb people don't want to hear this, but really, you're not doing charity
work, you're running a business, plain and simple.
Post by Boris
Do you have any clients with needs similar to mine? If so, what do you
advise?
I would never leave anything in the hands of others unless I'm prepared to
lose it. About 2 months ago I lent out a coffee cup from my dish set to a
neighbor. I didn't expect to get it back. So far I haven't. It just
happens that I don't need a service for 4 anyway, so I'm not worried about
the loss.

Same with books. If I like a book a lot I go get lots of copies of it and
give them to people rather than lend to them and hope that they'll return
them.

As for a house, I'd insure it to the hilt, especially liability, errors and
omissions, furnishings, etc., and simply not leave stuff around that I
wouldn't want to lose.

I'm not saying that nobody can be trusted; I'm saying that that 1 in 50 time
that someone is untrustworthy they'll take you to the cleaners.
Boris
2017-02-01 01:48:00 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by Boris
I was curious why in your post you said, "I tell my security camera
clients that cameras are useful for employee theft and misconduct,
but not all that useful for burglary or even robbery unless they know
the culprits."
My answer is contained in the statement. If you don't know the robber
or burglar you can't do much. In your case you knew the burglar in
the sense that you had the phone number he used to book the house.
I'm talking about a random burlgarly or robbery, which is a far more
frequent occurrence.
Post by Boris
I keep thinking of how to better protect the home from burglaries
committed by fraudulent renters.
Two answers: (1) Don't rent to fraudulent renters. Instead, rent to
friends. (2) Don't leave anything valuable in the house. Do they
HAVE to have TVs present? If you're going to use your home as a motel
think of it as a motel -- bolt the lamps to the tables, etc.
Remember, you're in BUSINESS, so treat your home as you would a
business. I know that most Airbnb people don't want to hear this, but
really, you're not doing charity work, you're running a business,
plain and simple.
Post by Boris
Do you have any clients with needs similar to mine? If so, what do
you advise?
I would never leave anything in the hands of others unless I'm
prepared to lose it. About 2 months ago I lent out a coffee cup from
my dish set to a neighbor. I didn't expect to get it back. So far I
haven't. It just happens that I don't need a service for 4 anyway, so
I'm not worried about the loss.
Same with books. If I like a book a lot I go get lots of copies of it
and give them to people rather than lend to them and hope that they'll
return them.
As for a house, I'd insure it to the hilt, especially liability,
errors and omissions, furnishings, etc., and simply not leave stuff
around that I wouldn't want to lose.
I'm not saying that nobody can be trusted; I'm saying that that 1 in
50 time that someone is untrustworthy they'll take you to the
cleaners.
I am unsured to the hilt, especially for liability (it has a pool).

I've always trusted people, even strangers. At my age, I've been lucky,
but this really made me think. It really changed my attitude.

Thanks,
David Kaye
2017-02-01 09:40:02 UTC
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Post by Boris
I am unsured to the hilt, especially for liability (it has a pool).
Okay, then don't sweat it.
Post by Boris
I've always trusted people, even strangers. At my age, I've been lucky,
but this really made me think. It really changed my attitude.
I have owned several businesses with dozens of employees. I hadn't had
problem with theft until I got into the restaurant business. I was shocked
that people stole just about everything that wasn't nailed down -- bags of
coffee, liquor, cans of olives, you name it. On one hot day our lead cook
was wearing an overcoat. Huh? He was trying to smuggle out a fully cooked
turkey breast!

Well, that particular problem was the culture. I'd hired too many people
who were already friends. Thus, I was the "outsider". Joke was one them
when one day I shut the doors.

I think people generally are fair and honest. And I think this is
especially true among friends, depending on how you know those friends.

As to security cameras I know of some fascinating situations. One evening I
happened to play back some video, showing the manager of a restaurant
snorting coke with his girlfriend. This was so odd because they did it
right under a security camera. Both folks are well-liked by the owners and
go beyond what's expected of their jobs, so I didn't say anything. I'm not
sure if the owner knows or not. They've not stolen any money or anything,
either. I'm also not employed by the company.

In another situation, a bar is covered head to toe with security cameras,
but one bartender knows exactly which nooks are out of camera range. These
are the places where he has sex with women he meets at the bar. On the
other hand, at the same place a security guard went behind the counter to
put some dishes in the dishwasher and the general manager later yelled at
him not to go behind the bar.

So, when you think of it, what good are security cameras except to satisfy
the voyeur in all of us? At this very moment I'm looking in on a security
camera as a worker sprays the grease off a mat. This particular place has
never been robbed and has only been burgled twice, so maybe the security
cameras are doing their job.
n***@sbcglobal.net
2017-02-01 20:17:25 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by Boris
I am unsured to the hilt, especially for liability (it has a pool).
Okay, then don't sweat it.
Post by Boris
I've always trusted people, even strangers. At my age, I've been lucky,
but this really made me think. It really changed my attitude.
I have owned several businesses with dozens of employees. I hadn't had
problem with theft until I got into the restaurant business. I was shocked
that people stole just about everything that wasn't nailed down -- bags of
coffee, liquor, cans of olives, you name it. On one hot day our lead cook
was wearing an overcoat. Huh? He was trying to smuggle out a fully cooked
turkey breast!
Well, that particular problem was the culture. I'd hired too many people
who were already friends. Thus, I was the "outsider". Joke was one them
when one day I shut the doors.
I think people generally are fair and honest. And I think this is
especially true among friends, depending on how you know those friends.
As to security cameras I know of some fascinating situations. One evening I
happened to play back some video, showing the manager of a restaurant
snorting coke with his girlfriend. This was so odd because they did it
right under a security camera. Both folks are well-liked by the owners and
go beyond what's expected of their jobs, so I didn't say anything. I'm not
sure if the owner knows or not. They've not stolen any money or anything,
either. I'm also not employed by the company.
In another situation, a bar is covered head to toe with security cameras,
but one bartender knows exactly which nooks are out of camera range. These
are the places where he has sex with women he meets at the bar. On the
other hand, at the same place a security guard went behind the counter to
put some dishes in the dishwasher and the general manager later yelled at
him not to go behind the bar.
So, when you think of it, what good are security cameras except to satisfy
the voyeur in all of us? At this very moment I'm looking in on a security
camera as a worker sprays the grease off a mat. This particular place has
never been robbed and has only been burgled twice, so maybe the security
cameras are doing their job.
A lot of people would think that snorting coke shouldn't be illegal and no worse than sitting down to have a glass of wine during a break (different effect though). They probably had a lot of energy to go beyond expectations. :-D

I have security cameras all over the place and last month on one that watches the street in front of 24/7 caught two high school girls TP'ing my house. The dummies got the wrong house! So I posted it online to a neighborhood group.

But I'm a geek and love to play with these things. I was running a webcam watching the street using an open source Linux program for a year before I got the new cam that has a memory card on it for storage. The webcam was no use after dark but the security cam is.
Boris
2017-02-01 21:39:18 UTC
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Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
Post by David Kaye
Post by Boris
I am unsured to the hilt, especially for liability (it has a pool).
Okay, then don't sweat it.
Post by Boris
I've always trusted people, even strangers. At my age, I've been
lucky
,
Post by David Kaye
Post by Boris
but this really made me think. It really changed my attitude.
I have owned several businesses with dozens of employees. I hadn't had
problem with theft until I got into the restaurant business. I was
shock
ed
Post by David Kaye
that people stole just about everything that wasn't nailed down --
bags o
f
Post by David Kaye
coffee, liquor, cans of olives, you name it. On one hot day our lead
coo
k
Post by David Kaye
was wearing an overcoat. Huh? He was trying to smuggle out a fully
cook
ed
Post by David Kaye
turkey breast!
Well, that particular problem was the culture. I'd hired too many people
who were already friends. Thus, I was the "outsider". Joke was one them
when one day I shut the doors.
I think people generally are fair and honest. And I think this is
especially true among friends, depending on how you know those friends.
As to security cameras I know of some fascinating situations. One
evenin
g I
Post by David Kaye
happened to play back some video, showing the manager of a restaurant
snorting coke with his girlfriend. This was so odd because they did it
right under a security camera. Both folks are well-liked by the
owners a
nd
Post by David Kaye
go beyond what's expected of their jobs, so I didn't say anything.
I'm n
ot
Post by David Kaye
sure if the owner knows or not. They've not stolen any money or
anything
,
Post by David Kaye
either. I'm also not employed by the company.
In another situation, a bar is covered head to toe with security cameras,
but one bartender knows exactly which nooks are out of camera range.
The
se
Post by David Kaye
are the places where he has sex with women he meets at the bar. On the
other hand, at the same place a security guard went behind the counter to
put some dishes in the dishwasher and the general manager later yelled at
him not to go behind the bar.
So, when you think of it, what good are security cameras except to
satisf
y
Post by David Kaye
the voyeur in all of us? At this very moment I'm looking in on a
securit
y
Post by David Kaye
camera as a worker sprays the grease off a mat. This particular
place ha
s
Post by David Kaye
never been robbed and has only been burgled twice, so maybe the security
cameras are doing their job.
A lot of people would think that snorting coke shouldn't be illegal
and no worse than sitting down to have a glass of wine during a break
(different effect though). They probably had a lot of energy to go
beyond expectations. :-D
I have security cameras all over the place and last month on one that
watches the street in front of 24/7 caught two high school girls
TP'ing my house. The dummies got the wrong house! So I posted it
online to a neighborhood group.
But I'm a geek and love to play with these things. I was running a
webcam watching the street using an open source Linux program for a
year before I got the new cam that has a memory card on it for
storage. The webcam was no use after dark but the security cam is.
I, too, like to play with this stuff but keeping three home networks
going (mine, in-law, rental) along with the associated hardware running
XP, Vista, Win 7 and Win10, and the TV (I hate comcast), I get worn
down. Not sure I want to also take on installing security cameras and
doing the inevitable troubleshooting on a house hours away. But, c'est
la vie. :-)
David Kaye
2017-02-01 22:33:50 UTC
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Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
A lot of people would think that snorting coke shouldn't be illegal and no
worse than sitting down
to have a glass of wine during a break (different effect though).
They probably had a lot of energy to go beyond expectations. :-D
My opinion is that if a person can maintain their work, intelligence, etc.,
I don't care what they're using. When I had my restaurant, my best employee
was a speed freak. I did have to pick him up one night when I was running
naked down the street. The cops called me and asked what they should do. I
told them just to keep him from harming himself and I'll be by to pick him
up. He was later so embarrassed that he totally stopped using speed. But
then we was also no longer able to cook 5 breakfasts at once, either...
Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
But I'm a geek and love to play with these things. I was running a webcam
watching the street using
an open source Linux program for a year before I got the new cam that has
a memory card on it for
storage. The webcam was no use after dark but the security cam is.
Yeah, I love the tech, too. I am still amazed that those little red LEDs
can light up a dark room so well. One camera in a restaurant is motion
triggered in the dark by the occasional moth flying around or a little tiny
field mouse scurrying by. Amazing.
n***@sbcglobal.net
2017-02-02 18:42:57 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
A lot of people would think that snorting coke shouldn't be illegal and no
worse than sitting down
to have a glass of wine during a break (different effect though).
They probably had a lot of energy to go beyond expectations. :-D
My opinion is that if a person can maintain their work, intelligence, etc.,
I don't care what they're using. When I had my restaurant, my best employee
was a speed freak. I did have to pick him up one night when I was running
naked down the street.
Typo there, David? Never know in SF though. :-D
Post by David Kaye
The cops called me and asked what they should do. I
told them just to keep him from harming himself and I'll be by to pick him
up. He was later so embarrassed that he totally stopped using speed. But
then we was also no longer able to cook 5 breakfasts at once, either...
Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
But I'm a geek and love to play with these things. I was running a webcam
watching the street using
an open source Linux program for a year before I got the new cam that has
a memory card on it for
storage. The webcam was no use after dark but the security cam is.
Yeah, I love the tech, too. I am still amazed that those little red LEDs
can light up a dark room so well. One camera in a restaurant is motion
triggered in the dark by the occasional moth flying around or a little tiny
field mouse scurrying by. Amazing.
One of my extra security cameras has 6 bright LEDs on it and lights up the area like daylight compared to the array on my Swann cameras.

I also used an extra indoor security cam to find where a mouse was getting into the kitchen so I could trap it. I had found a tiny space at the floor vent where it could get though from under the house. Needless to say I closed that off.
David Kaye
2017-02-02 22:42:29 UTC
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Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
Typo there, David? Never know in SF though. :-D
Heh....typo, definitely. The cook was running naked down the street.
Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
One of my extra security cameras has 6 bright LEDs on it and lights up the
area like daylight
compared to the array on my Swann cameras.
What I've liked about Swann is the DVR interface, using the DVR's model
number rather than needing to use static IP or DDNS. Set it and forget it.
Unfortunately, their viewing clients are buggy. The Swannview Link client
on Windows usually crashes the first time it runs, and I've run it on 5
computers from XP to Win 10. After the first crash it runs fine and takes
little overhead. The Swannview Link on Android is flawless. Swannview Plus
is erratic and a bitch to set up so that it doesn't hog bandwidth.
Unfortunately, the three main clients, Link, Plus, and NetViewer are
incompatible. I'd love for them to make one basic client that works on all
their systems.

As to Swann cameras, they look like some kind of multipurpose camera. I had
a lower voltage power supply (I think 6 VDC) and while the cams worked they
showed lines that looked to be for measurement. I was told that the same
innards are used for truck back-up cameras and that I was seeing a
measurement to show proximity for backup. Very odd indeed. When I ran the
right voltage (which I think is 12 volts, but I forget) the cams worked
fine. They're a little tricky when the ambient light is on the threshold of
turning the LEDs on; one camera flickers back and forth between full color
and b/w. Odd.
Post by n***@sbcglobal.net
I also used an extra indoor security cam to find where a mouse was getting
into the kitchen
so I could trap it. I had found a tiny space at the floor vent where it
could get though from
under the house. Needless to say I closed that off.
That's IT! Use security cams to find your mice!

Boris
2017-02-01 21:32:39 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by Boris
I am unsured to the hilt, especially for liability (it has a pool).
Okay, then don't sweat it.
Post by Boris
I've always trusted people, even strangers. At my age, I've been
lucky, but this really made me think. It really changed my attitude.
I have owned several businesses with dozens of employees. I hadn't
had problem with theft until I got into the restaurant business. I
was shocked that people stole just about everything that wasn't nailed
down -- bags of coffee, liquor, cans of olives, you name it. On one
hot day our lead cook was wearing an overcoat. Huh? He was trying to
smuggle out a fully cooked turkey breast!
Yep. They stole food, the large supply of toiletries such as hair care
stuff, soaps, toothbrushes, toilet paper, laundry supplies, This home is
very nice,and we keep it stocked with everything a visitor/vacationeer
could need.We also keep the home immaculate. Why? Because this is my
home and I may someday make it my primary residence.
We have nothing but 5-star ratings and the most common comments are
"very homey, very clean, nice neighbots, and well stocked".
Post by David Kaye
Well, that particular problem was the culture. I'd hired too many
people who were already friends. Thus, I was the "outsider". Joke
was one them when one day I shut the doors.
I think people generally are fair and honest. And I think this is
especially true among friends, depending on how you know those
friends.
I do, too. At any rate, I need to look at it as a business now, or else
get out of the business if I want to keep it nice for my future
residence.
Post by David Kaye
As to security cameras I know of some fascinating situations. One
evening I happened to play back some video, showing the manager of a
restaurant snorting coke with his girlfriend. This was so odd because
they did it right under a security camera. Both folks are well-liked
by the owners and go beyond what's expected of their jobs, so I didn't
say anything. I'm not sure if the owner knows or not. They've not
stolen any money or anything, either. I'm also not employed by the
company.
In another situation, a bar is covered head to toe with security
cameras, but one bartender knows exactly which nooks are out of camera
range. These are the places where he has sex with women he meets at
the bar. On the other hand, at the same place a security guard went
behind the counter to put some dishes in the dishwasher and the
general manager later yelled at him not to go behind the bar.
So, when you think of it, what good are security cameras except to
satisfy the voyeur in all of us? At this very moment I'm looking in
on a security camera as a worker sprays the grease off a mat. This
particular place has never been robbed and has only been burgled
twice, so maybe the security cameras are doing their job.
David Kaye
2017-02-01 22:35:40 UTC
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Post by Boris
Yep. They stole food, the large supply of toiletries such as hair care
stuff, soaps, toothbrushes, toilet paper, laundry supplies, This home is
very nice,and we keep it stocked with everything a visitor/vacationeer
could need.We also keep the home immaculate.
Well, then I guess you could project out the cost of thefts over a year and
build it into the rental fee.
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