Discussion:
Yahoo's fastrack to belly-upping continues as Yahoo Email passwords stolen
(too old to reply)
Thad Floryan
2014-01-31 03:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
After the recent destruction of Yahoo's major features with
ill-designed/-implemented and non-tested HTML5 code particularly
the brain-dead useless NEO interface for Yahoo Groups, this news
surfaces today:

http://www.sfgate.com/business/technology/article/Yahoo-email-account-passwords-stolen-5190455.php

Thad
SMS
2014-01-31 15:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
After the recent destruction of Yahoo's major features with
ill-designed/-implemented and non-tested HTML5 code particularly
the brain-dead useless NEO interface for Yahoo Groups, this news
http://www.sfgate.com/business/technology/article/Yahoo-email-account-passwords-stolen-5190455.php
I'm amazed that anyone is still using Yahoo Mail. These sorts of issues
have been going on for more than a year now. I finally created a filter
with an automated response to mail from Yahoo accounts:

"Your e-mail was not delivered. Due to continued criminal hacking of
Yahoo e-mail accounts the destination e-mail address is no longer able
to receive e-mail from Yahoo mail accounts. Google "criminal hacking
yahoo mail" for more details. Please consider establishing a new e-mail
account using a different provider."

I was going to put a link to one of the news stories but I don't want
people to get into the habit of clicking on links in e-mails (plus news
stories get removed eventually). Google "criminal hacking yahoo mail"
and the latest issue comes right up as the first result.
David Kaye
2014-01-31 22:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"Your e-mail was not delivered. Due to continued criminal hacking of Yahoo
e-mail accounts the destination e-mail address is no longer able to
receive e-mail from Yahoo mail accounts. Google "criminal hacking yahoo
mail" for more details. Please consider establishing a new e-mail account
using a different provider."
I have 11 Yahoo email accounts. I use them for personal use, business use,
charity stuff I'm involved in, running ads for new housemates, etc. I have
only had one account hacked and that was because I chose a really stupid
password that showed up on the most-used password lists. I reset it the
next day and had no problems with the account since.

Apparently the hack came from the "shared access" or whatever they call it
where you can make a comment somewhere or access some kind of web page by
using Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo, Google, etc credentials. I make some posts
to some forums on other websites using a Yahoo account, but I am always
quick to go to that Yahoo account and log out after I'm finished writing to
the other website.

I have used Yahoo mail for at least 15 years, probably more. I have also
been using Yahoo Groups from its inception as eGroups, and that probably
goes back 15 years as well.

I'm not fond of the interface changes and some of the bugs they've been
having recently, but they've cleared up the bugs and I see no current
problems. Also, I access a couple Yahoo accounts via IMAP and it works
flawlessly. Oddly enough, they charge for POP3 but no for IMAP connections.
Not sure why.

I will continue to use Yahoo email accounts, and if I should ever have the
need to send you email I guess you won't get it. Oh well...
Keith Keller
2014-01-31 23:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
"Your e-mail was not delivered. Due to continued criminal hacking of Yahoo
e-mail accounts the destination e-mail address is no longer able to
receive e-mail from Yahoo mail accounts. Google "criminal hacking yahoo
mail" for more details. Please consider establishing a new e-mail account
using a different provider."
I have 11 Yahoo email accounts.
I guess I should set up something similar to SMS.

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Thad Floryan
2014-02-01 03:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
[...]
I'm not fond of the interface changes and some of the bugs they've been
having recently, but they've cleared up the bugs and I see no current
problems.
[...]
Hi David,

It's not clear if you [also] meant Yahoo Groups above.

To date, these are the major bugs still not fixed with the
ill-designed/-implemented HTML5 crapola named Neo which replaced
the previously fully-functional Yahoo Groups web interface during
mid-August 2013:

1. Group messages archives have been hosed. Code and script
examples are now unreadable due to all consecutive spaces/tabs
reduced to just one space,

2. formatted data tables are totally unreadable for the same reason
as (1),

3. the previous ability to "Use fixed-width font" has been removed
and everything retrieved from the message archives is returned
in a very poorly chosen proportional font which is unsuitable for
technical groups (astronomy, computer-related, math, machining,
photography, science, and more).

4. the Reply function (to messages in a group's archive) produces
non-standard and incoherent, non-attributed emails in direct
contravention of worldwide and Usenet standard(s) such as:

http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php

http://howto-pages.org/posting_style

which were properly performed prior to the Neo infection of
mid-August 2013, and

5. infinite scrolling. I didn't know what it was called until the
Friday 27 December 2013 XKCD cartoon:

http://xkcd.com/1309/ Infinite Scrolling, and

http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1309 The explanation

Per the explanation, infinite scrolling is implemented incorrectly
and that's besides the fact it's insane to have it at all in the
first place when simple page flipping was previously possible, very
useful, and one didn't lose one's place as mentioned in the XKCD
cartoon.

I didn't list (above) the still-deficient owner/moderator capabilities
that are still hosed since those bugs only affect group owner/moderators.

As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.

Thad
Eric Weaver
2014-02-01 03:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.
Um, Yeah, Thad, theyr'e gonna file Chap. XI tomorrow, I'm sure, with
upteen x 10^9 bucks in the bank plus a big chunk of Alibaba.

Being a recent 'hoo (I worked in ops), it makes me sad that the mail and
groups guys did some boneheaded UX work like that, especially since the
user-experience lab is in the building I used to work in. But belly-up?
no time soon, sorry.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-01 04:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eric Weaver
Post by Thad Floryan
As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.
Um, Yeah, Thad, theyr'e gonna file Chap. XI tomorrow, I'm sure, with
upteen x 10^9 bucks in the bank plus a big chunk of Alibaba.
Being a recent 'hoo (I worked in ops), it makes me sad that the mail and
groups guys did some boneheaded UX work like that, especially since the
user-experience lab is in the building I used to work in. But belly-up?
no time soon, sorry.
Hi Eric,

FWIW, people *ARE* leaving Yahoo Groups in massive droves due to the
Neo infection. And of the 70 or so groups I'm in, participation in
groups has dramatically fallen based on the message traffic which has
greatly diminished since mid-August 2013 when Neo infected groups.

It does appear some folks have not been Neo'd yet and one person in
one Yahoo group commented Yahoo has ceased Neo'ing people due to the
cries and howls especially regarding moderator functions. This is
speculation but it appears the NEO'ization was occurring alphabetically
by name so people with last names such as Taylor haven't been NEO'd.

I finally logged-in to Yahoo again earlier this week and Yahoo will
NOT provide me my Profile or Account Info so I'm unable to determine
if there's a [#] I can check to un-NEO myself. So I logged-out again
and will let the account expire after I delete a bunch of groups this
weekend and that's it for Yahoo for me and a bunch of other people.

Also FWIW, Yahoo's current focus on "mobile" is of no interest to me
whatsoever.

Thad
Eric Weaver
2014-02-01 05:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
FWIW, people *ARE* leaving Yahoo Groups in massive droves due to the
Neo infection. And of the 70 or so groups I'm in, participation in
groups has dramatically fallen based on the message traffic which has
greatly diminished since mid-August 2013 when Neo infected groups.
That kind of thing happens when you get young web hackers who want to
redo everything in Ajax's image, and no UX or design oversight. The
"Minty" redo of mail back in 2011 I thought was pretty good.
Post by Thad Floryan
It does appear some folks have not been Neo'd yet and one person in
one Yahoo group commented Yahoo has ceased Neo'ing people due to the
cries and howls especially regarding moderator functions. This is
speculation but it appears the NEO'ization was occurring alphabetically
by name so people with last names such as Taylor haven't been NEO'd.
From what little I know of how Groups is implemented, that could be.
Post by Thad Floryan
I finally logged-in to Yahoo again earlier this week and Yahoo will
NOT provide me my Profile or Account Info so I'm unable to determine
if there's a [#] I can check to un-NEO myself. So I logged-out again
and will let the account expire after I delete a bunch of groups this
weekend and that's it for Yahoo for me and a bunch of other people.
IIRC, Finance and Sports and to some extent News are the big monetizers,
and I'd be surprised if 'Riss even knows what Groups are.
Post by Thad Floryan
Also FWIW, Yahoo's current focus on "mobile" is of no interest to me
whatsoever.
Future demographics vs. past demographics.
Travis James
2014-02-02 16:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eric Weaver
Post by Thad Floryan
I finally logged-in to Yahoo again earlier this week and Yahoo will
NOT provide me my Profile or Account Info so I'm unable to determine
if there's a [#] I can check to un-NEO myself. So I logged-out again
and will let the account expire after I delete a bunch of groups this
weekend and that's it for Yahoo for me and a bunch of other people.
IIRC, Finance and Sports and to some extent News are the big monetizers,
and I'd be surprised if 'Riss even knows what Groups are.
Finance is still fine. I use it for charts and financial snapshots.
Sports went from one of the cleanest pages years ago to slowly adding
junk and finally the current design which is an eyesore. I'd like to
know who decided those awful backgrounds were the right thing to do.
Post by Eric Weaver
Post by Thad Floryan
Also FWIW, Yahoo's current focus on "mobile" is of no interest to me
whatsoever.
Future demographics vs. past demographics.
Exactly. Mobile and tablet are critical to a site that serves a general
audience.
David Kaye
2014-02-01 13:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
FWIW, people *ARE* leaving Yahoo Groups in massive droves due to the
Neo infection. And of the 70 or so groups I'm in, participation in
groups has dramatically fallen based on the message traffic which has
greatly diminished since mid-August 2013 when Neo infected groups.
I guess it depends on how the group is used. The games group I moderate has
a link on the games web page. Most users click on the link which sends an
email request to Yahoo Groups. So, they end up signing up via email and
never see the web page. At last count I had 446 people in the group and in
the past month just 2 drops. I don't think many of us on the list use the
web interface at all.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-01 17:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eric Weaver
Post by Thad Floryan
As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.
Um, Yeah, Thad, theyr'e gonna file Chap. XI tomorrow, I'm sure, with
upteen x 10^9 bucks in the bank plus a big chunk of Alibaba.
<https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AYHOO&fstype=ii&ei=vijtUuChFM7diQLetgE>
Looks like Yahoo is bleeding about -$600 million/year. They seem to
have lost most of it (-$1.7 billion) from "financing activities". I
have no idea what that means, but my guess(tm) is that they're playing
the stock market or investing in other companies.

See the graph at the top of the page. Click "cash flow" and "annual
data". Note the trend line for "investing".
Post by Eric Weaver
Being a recent 'hoo (I worked in ops), it makes me sad that the mail and
groups guys did some boneheaded UX work like that, especially since the
user-experience lab is in the building I used to work in. But belly-up?
no time soon, sorry.
If my reading between the lines is correct, and they do nothing
different, Yahoo hits zero in 2 years.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
2014-02-01 16:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by David Kaye
[...]
I'm not fond of the interface changes and some of the bugs they've been
having recently, but they've cleared up the bugs and I see no current
problems.
[...]
Hi David,
It's not clear if you [also] meant Yahoo Groups above.
To date, these are the major bugs still not fixed with the
ill-designed/-implemented HTML5 crapola named Neo which replaced
the previously fully-functional Yahoo Groups web interface during
1. Group messages archives have been hosed. Code and script
examples are now unreadable due to all consecutive spaces/tabs
reduced to just one space,
2. formatted data tables are totally unreadable for the same reason
as (1),
3. the previous ability to "Use fixed-width font" has been removed
and everything retrieved from the message archives is returned
in a very poorly chosen proportional font which is unsuitable for
technical groups (astronomy, computer-related, math, machining,
photography, science, and more).
4. the Reply function (to messages in a group's archive) produces
non-standard and incoherent, non-attributed emails in direct
http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php
http://howto-pages.org/posting_style
which were properly performed prior to the Neo infection of
mid-August 2013, and
5. infinite scrolling. I didn't know what it was called until the
http://xkcd.com/1309/ Infinite Scrolling, and
http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1309 The explanation
Per the explanation, infinite scrolling is implemented incorrectly
and that's besides the fact it's insane to have it at all in the
first place when simple page flipping was previously possible, very
useful, and one didn't lose one's place as mentioned in the XKCD
cartoon.
I didn't list (above) the still-deficient owner/moderator capabilities
that are still hosed since those bugs only affect group owner/moderators.
As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.
It seems like both Yahoo and Google are intent on wrecking popular
services they provide for their own internal reasons that we mere
mortals are unable to understand.

But the widespread Yahoo mail hacking is due to weaknesses in their
systems, it was probably not intentional. The destruction of Yahoo
Groups and the destruction of the Usenet portion of Google Groups was
purely intentional. Apparently these free services don't make the
provider any money so they are trying to get people to stop using them.
This is the same reason that Google is removing some of the most useful
features from Google Voice.
David Kaye
2014-02-02 01:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The destruction of Yahoo Groups and the destruction of the Usenet portion
of Google Groups was purely intentional. Apparently these free services
don't make the provider any money so they are trying to get people to stop
using them.
Sometimes you say insightful things and sometimes you spout so much BS that
I wonder if there are two of you. If Yahoo wanted to get rid of Groups
they'd just shut it down. End of story. Lots of services offered by Yahoo
and Google have been unceremoniously shut down over the years.

But for you to say that they're purposely sabotaging their services is a
very stupid thing to say. Why would any company purposely try to damage
their brand? By shutting down a service they don't want to run they don't
run the risk of damaging their brand. Or for that matter they could sell
off those things they don't want and make a little money. But purposely
damaging their services? No way.

I happen to know several people who work at Yahoo (though none in Groups or
email), and I'm always hearing very positive things from them about their
projects and the company itself.
sms
2014-02-02 17:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
The destruction of Yahoo Groups and the destruction of the Usenet portion
of Google Groups was purely intentional. Apparently these free services
don't make the provider any money so they are trying to get people to stop
using them.
Sometimes you say insightful things and sometimes you spout so much BS that
I wonder if there are two of you. If Yahoo wanted to get rid of Groups
they'd just shut it down. End of story. Lots of services offered by Yahoo
and Google have been unceremoniously shut down over the years.
But for you to say that they're purposely sabotaging their services is a
very stupid thing to say. Why would any company purposely try to damage
their brand? By shutting down a service they don't want to run they don't
run the risk of damaging their brand. Or for that matter they could sell
off those things they don't want and make a little money. But purposely
damaging their services? No way.
What other possible reason could there be for Google or Yahoo worsening
services to the point that the users eventually abandon the service?

These companies know how people use each service. If the service is not
generating revenue and it is costing money to maintain then it needs to
be shut down. But they don't just want to eliminate a service entirely
and instantly because that would _really_ damage their brand. They want
to slowly worsen them to wean users off of them until they can proclaim
that so few people use the service that there's no reason to continue
offering it.

Look at Google Voice. It's a popular service but they intentionally have
been decontenting it. No forwarding to foreign phone numbers, the
elimination of using an ATA (beginning in May 2014). Do you think that
they don't know that this will reduce usage of the service? Of course
they do.

Similarly, do you think Yahoo isn't smart enough to know that people are
abandoning Yahoo Groups as they have worsened it? Most likely Yahoo
realized that Yahoo Groups was not generating enough advertising revenue
to warrant continuing the service.

Yahoo Mail is probably a different story. They have inherent security
flaws that are responsible for all the hacking of Yahoo accounts and
they have struggled to fix those flaws.

The services that they worsen to the point that no one wants to use them
are services that they can't sell to anyone because they will not
generate any revenue.
David Kaye
2014-02-02 23:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
What other possible reason could there be for Google or Yahoo worsening
services to the point that the users eventually abandon the service?
You're caught in the "who's the customer?" problem. The customer is NOT the
user; the customer is the advertiser or the person buying marketing info.
It could well be that the interfaces were changed to be appealing to a more
desirable demographic or to widen the ad platform. For instance, I now get
an ad on my screen after I delete the last message in a folder. That didn't
happen before. Unfortunately for Yahoo it's usually the "Rich Dad, Poor
Dad" charlatan pushing his "seminars" (aka sales pitches).
Post by sms
These companies know how people use each service. If the service is not
generating revenue and it is costing money to maintain then it needs to be
shut down. But they don't just want to eliminate a service entirely and
instantly because that would _really_ damage their brand. They want to
slowly worsen them to wean users off of them until they can proclaim that
so few people use the service that there's no reason to continue offering
it.
Again, you're not making sense. Lots of companies shut down services. They
do it quickly and people soon forget. By purposely causing a service to get
bad they're dragging out the bad will and damaging their brand. Do you
remember "Microsoft Bob"? Bob was a "helpful" animated character used to
show people how to run Windows. Most people have never heard of Bob because
Microsoft quickly removed it when they found that people disliked it.

Same thing with Apple. People remember Apple's successes, but not their
failures (Lisa, Newton, Pippin, the eMate - which looked like a make-up kit,
the G4, and the 20th anniversary Mac - probably the most hideous look of any
Mac product ever). But who remembers any of those? Who thinks about the
billions of dollars Apple wasted building and marketing them? Apple took
them off the market before they could do any damage.

So, too, with service companies such as Google and Yahoo.

Have you ever run a business? I've run several, where my own capital was on
the line. I owned a restaurant, nightclub, telephone call center, a couple
commercial mailbox/wrap and ship stores, and a moving company. And now I do
freelance tech consulting. I learned that you have to do everything in your
power to keep your company brand positive in people's eyes.


PACIFIC'S STORY: Now, this does NOT mean that you have to be everything to
everyone. When I owned Pacific Answering, we dealt only with top of the
line customers who were willing to pay us boatloads of money for excellent
service. Lots of low-baller people complained that our prices were too
high, so what I did was arrange to get commissions from my competitors to
sign up the low-ballers with them!

Our target customers loved us. Look through the 1984 or 1985 SF Yellow
Pages and you'll see the half-page ad I was running for Pacific. We were
the ONLY call center running testimonials from satisfied customers,
including Wells Fargo Bank! But the low-ballers? They hated us because we
didn't cater to them.

In order for a company to compete, they CAN'T be everything to everybody.
They have to define a target audience, market specifically to them, and
serve them well. Again, WE are not the customers, WE are the "product"
being sold to the customers, which are marketers and companies trying to
sell things. And Google and Yahoo and all those other companies are going
cater to THEIR wishes, not ours.
sms
2014-02-03 09:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Post by sms
What other possible reason could there be for Google or Yahoo worsening
services to the point that the users eventually abandon the service?
You're caught in the "who's the customer?" problem. The customer is NOT the
user; the customer is the advertiser or the person buying marketing info.
It could well be that the interfaces were changed to be appealing to a more
desirable demographic or to widen the ad platform.
You have to look at the big picture.

When Yahoo (or any media company) takes steps to reduce the number of
users of a service then viewership falls and they can't sell ads for as
much money. So the savings they gain by worsening a service have to
outweigh any losses in advertising revenue caused by reduced viewership.

People decry these changes and insist that these companies are stupid
for doing things that make users abandon these products. Read
<http://seo.xenite.org/2013/09/13/all-of-your-yahoo-groups-just-went-search-dark/>.
In fact, Mayer probably looked at the costs and revenue of the old Yahoo
Groups and decided that it had to go regardless of how much it angered
users of the service.

It's not just companies like Google and Yahoo that make changes that
save money while reducing viewership or listenership. Radio stations and
TV stations do this too. Look at KGO radio. Cumulus knew that firing all
the weekday hosts would tank the ratings and reduce ad revenue but they
decided that the money saved in personnel costs was worth it.
David Kaye
2014-02-03 10:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
When Yahoo (or any media company) takes steps to reduce the number of
users of a service then viewership falls and they can't sell ads for as
much money.
NOT true. Oftentimes a company will purposely push away undesired
demographics in order to make the demos they have look more appealing. This
is what KGO did when they fired most of their regular talkshow hosts a
couple years back. It's better to be #8 in ages 18 to 34 than to be #1 in
overall when that overall is mostly people age 50+. In KGO's case, they
couldn't get ad agencies to touch them, and agencies are the bread and
butter of broadcasting.

Well, the web isn't really any different. It's not eyes, but WHOSE eyes
that matter.
sms
2014-02-03 16:11:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Post by sms
When Yahoo (or any media company) takes steps to reduce the number of
users of a service then viewership falls and they can't sell ads for as
much money.
NOT true. Oftentimes a company will purposely push away undesired
demographics in order to make the demos they have look more appealing. This
is what KGO did when they fired most of their regular talkshow hosts a
couple years back. It's better to be #8 in ages 18 to 34 than to be #1 in
overall when that overall is mostly people age 50+. In KGO's case, they
couldn't get ad agencies to touch them, and agencies are the bread and
butter of broadcasting.
Well, the web isn't really any different. It's not eyes, but WHOSE eyes
that matter.
And Yahoo is driving away the eyes whose owners have the most disposable
income.
David Kaye
2014-02-03 19:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
And Yahoo is driving away the eyes whose owners have the most disposable
income.
This discussion has gone on and on over at ba.broadcast over the years.
Older folks may have more disposable income but they don't dispose of it on
products the advertisers are selling.

Super Bowl is a perfect example. The ads cost about $4 million apiece.
Were they marketing to people age 50+ or people age 25 to 49? The latter
most definitely. This is why you didn't see anybody above age 35 in any of
the ads. And they were selling tech products older people don't buy. Cars?
Well, younger people buy cars every few years; older people hang onto them
for decades.

Also notice the halftime entertainment: Bruno Mars and Red Hot Chili
Peppers appeal to 25 to 49. Had they wanted to reach people 50+ they'd have
had Rod Stewart and Elton John.

Well, the web is the same way. As people age they buy less and less. I'm
thinking of how I can cash in on the coming housing crash as people age 60+
will soon be selling their big homes and buying RVs or renting. There's
going to be a glut of houses on the market.
sms
2014-02-03 20:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Post by sms
And Yahoo is driving away the eyes whose owners have the most disposable
income.
This discussion has gone on and on over at ba.broadcast over the years.
Older folks may have more disposable income but they don't dispose of it on
products the advertisers are selling.
Super Bowl is a perfect example. The ads cost about $4 million apiece.
Were they marketing to people age 50+ or people age 25 to 49? The latter
most definitely. This is why you didn't see anybody above age 35 in any of
the ads. And they were selling tech products older people don't buy. Cars?
Well, younger people buy cars every few years; older people hang onto them
for decades.
Having Bob Dylan in an ad for Chrysler is an example of directly
marketing to an older crowd. Cheerios are marketed to older people.
Chevy are marketed to older people. Turbo Tax is marketed to all ages.
Radio Shack doesn't market to young people.
Post by David Kaye
Also notice the halftime entertainment: Bruno Mars and Red Hot Chili
Peppers appeal to 25 to 49. Had they wanted to reach people 50+ they'd have
had Rod Stewart and Elton John.
Dylan should have been entertaining instead of being in a commercial.
Post by David Kaye
Well, the web is the same way. As people age they buy less and less. I'm
thinking of how I can cash in on the coming housing crash as people age 60+
will soon be selling their big homes and buying RVs or renting. There's
going to be a glut of houses on the market.
You'd better move to another state to do that because it certainly isn't
happening in California with Prop 13. People keep their big homes or
they let their adult children live in them and pay the low property
taxes while they move to a smaller place. Or they rent the house out for
income while paying the low property taxes, especially in areas where
good schools drive up the rents to insanely high levels, like Palo Alto,
Cupertino, Pleasanton, San Ramon, Los Altos, etc.. Also, the number of
counties where seniors can take their Prop 13 valuation has shrunk. One
reason why schools are so underfunded, the unintended consequences of
Prop 13 as well as rent control. In my neighborhood, houses usually go
up for sale only when for death or divorce, and not even for death as
children inherit the Prop. 13 valuation.
David Kaye
2014-02-03 21:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Having Bob Dylan in an ad for Chrysler is an example of directly marketing
to an older crowd.
That was a strange one. I was sitting in my favorite restaurant watching
the commercials and when the Dylan spot came on, people (all who were
younger than I) said things like, "Is he still ALIVE?" I'm perplexed as to
why an ad featured him unless whoever bought the time relates more to Dylan
than to Beyonce. Of course he could have been a cheap buy, too.
sms
2014-02-03 22:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Having Bob Dylan in an ad for Chrysler is an example of directly marketing
to an older crowd.
That was a strange one. I was sitting in my favorite restaurant watching
the commercials and when the Dylan spot came on, people (all who were
younger than I) said things like, "Is he still ALIVE?" I'm perplexed as to
why an ad featured him unless whoever bought the time relates more to Dylan
than to Beyonce. Of course he could have been a cheap buy, too.
Seniors and soon-to-be seniors tend to have the most disposable income
and are the people most inclined to consider a Chrysler product.
Chrysler understands who their target market is and knows that that
target market is watching the Super Bowl.
sms
2014-02-04 00:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Having Bob Dylan in an ad for Chrysler is an example of directly marketing
to an older crowd.
That was a strange one. I was sitting in my favorite restaurant watching
the commercials and when the Dylan spot came on, people (all who were
younger than I) said things like, "Is he still ALIVE?" I'm perplexed as to
why an ad featured him unless whoever bought the time relates more to Dylan
than to Beyonce. Of course he could have been a cheap buy, too.
It's likely that the reason that Bob Dylan starred in the Super Bowl ad
for the Chrysler 200 is because it's the first Chrysler branded product
to feature digital radio (other Chrysler brands already have the
technology)
<http://www.radioworld.com/article/chrysler-sedan-to-offer-hd-radio/223251>.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-04 01:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
Post by David Kaye
Having Bob Dylan in an ad for Chrysler is an example of directly marketing
to an older crowd.
That was a strange one. I was sitting in my favorite restaurant watching
the commercials and when the Dylan spot came on, people (all who were
younger than I) said things like, "Is he still ALIVE?" I'm perplexed as to
why an ad featured him unless whoever bought the time relates more to Dylan
than to Beyonce. Of course he could have been a cheap buy, too.
It's likely that the reason that Bob Dylan starred in the Super Bowl ad
for the Chrysler 200 is because it's the first Chrysler branded product
to feature digital radio (other Chrysler brands already have the
technology)
<http://www.radioworld.com/article/chrysler-sedan-to-offer-hd-radio/223251>.
Now that's a stretch. No mention of anything even close to HD Radio,
or any of Dylan's music in the commercial. The background music
sounded like synthesized bumper music. See for yourself:

The adverts pitch line is based on "American pride", which I guess
means if you buy a Chrysler 200, you get to share and show some pride.
Bob Dylan is certainly an icon to the geriatric crowd (which includes
me). I presume only retired people can afford the Chrysler 200. Or,
maybe Dylan is suppose to represent a dinosaur like father figure from
a past generation. I dunno. Either the message is extremely subtle
and obscure, or it's a total screwup, or Fiat has a strange idea of
how Americans think.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
2014-02-04 01:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2/3/2014 5:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
It's likely that the reason that Bob Dylan starred in the Super Bowl ad
for the Chrysler 200 is because it's the first Chrysler branded product
to feature digital radio (other Chrysler brands already have the
technology)
<http://www.radioworld.com/article/chrysler-sedan-to-offer-hd-radio/223251>.
Now that's a stretch.
Just pushing buttons. Changing the subject, I recall seeing a CD in
Target last year "The Original Mono Recordings" of Bob Dylan. I asked my
daughter if she knew what "Mono" referred to. She didn't.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-04 01:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
Just pushing buttons.
Gee... I thought you were at least partly serious.
Post by sms
Changing the subject, I recall seeing a CD in
Target last year "The Original Mono Recordings" of Bob Dylan. I asked my
daughter if she knew what "Mono" referred to. She didn't.
Oh-oh. She doesn't know about Mononucleosis?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_mononucleosis>
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
2014-02-04 15:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
Just pushing buttons.
Gee... I thought you were at least partly serious.
Post by sms
Changing the subject, I recall seeing a CD in
Target last year "The Original Mono Recordings" of Bob Dylan. I asked my
daughter if she knew what "Mono" referred to. She didn't.
Oh-oh. She doesn't know about Mononucleosis?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_mononucleosis>
The joke I tell people is that she asked if it meant that he did the
recordings while he had mono.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-04 03:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
[...]
It's likely that the reason that Bob Dylan starred in the Super Bowl ad
for the Chrysler 200 is because it's the first Chrysler branded product
to feature digital radio (other Chrysler brands already have the
technology)
<http://www.radioworld.com/article/chrysler-sedan-to-offer-hd-radio/223251>.
Now that's a stretch. No mention of anything even close to HD Radio,
or any of Dylan's music in the commercial. The background music
http://youtu.be/KlSn8Isv-3M
True about the SB ad, but the HD Radio is clearly mentioned on one of
the Chrysler 200's web pages. I was curious about the car so I found
this page where the video commercial is also available:

http://www.chrysler.com/en/2015/200/
Post by Jeff Liebermann
The adverts pitch line is based on "American pride", which I guess
means if you buy a Chrysler 200, you get to share and show some pride.
Bob Dylan is certainly an icon to the geriatric crowd (which includes
me). I presume only retired people can afford the Chrysler 200.
Why would you say that? The MSRP starts at $21,700 which is considerably
less than I paid for my current car, an Oldsmobile Aurora, in 2001. FWIW:

$2,090 for my 1st car, a new Citroën DS-19 in 1960, 1.9L 4 cyl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS

$3,100 for my 2nd car, a new Plymouth Gold Duster in 1970, 318 V8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Duster

$14,000 (approx) for my 3rd, a new T-Bird Heritage in 1983, 5L V8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Thunderbird_%28ninth_generation%29

$30,000 (approx) for my 4th, a new Olds Aurora in 2001, 3.5L V6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Aurora

I rented a 2001 Aurora from Enterprise for a week for a prolonged test
drive before I bought one; it was easily able to reach more than 2.3x
the speed limit driving Westwards at 3am in San Mateo at the "top" of
Hwy92 starting from El Camino noting that's a reasonably steep grade
and that uphill test cinched my purchase. I was putting 300+ miles
a week on it until my last 2 employers in San Mateo went belly-up and
the odometer shows 111,000 miles. I put over 200,000 miles on each of
my prior cars noting I change the oil and other fluids and filters myself
to be sure it's done correctly. I also ALWAYS bought the factory service
manual set for every car I've owned (the Aurora's is 3 large volumes).

The Chrysler 200 has 4 models whose MSRPs start at:

200 LX, $21,700
200 Limited, $23,255
200 S, $24,495
200 C, $25,995

You can see the features each 200 model has over each "lower" model here:

http://www.chrysler.com/hostc/bmo/CUC201509/compareModels.do

If I was in the market for a new car, the 200 might be one of the contenders
though not because of my age (noting I qualified for Medicare awhile back).
Post by Jeff Liebermann
maybe Dylan is suppose to represent a dinosaur like father figure from
a past generation. I dunno. Either the message is extremely subtle
and obscure, or it's a total screwup, or Fiat has a strange idea of
how Americans think.
I thought the commercial stank -- it would not compel me to buy one.

These are what I'd like to see that could compel me to buy a car:

runtime 2:09

runtime 9:52

:-)

Thad
David Kaye
2014-02-04 05:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
http://youtu.be/q3BGkOKVMUU runtime 2:09
WOW! Now THAT'S parking!
Bhairitu
2014-02-04 18:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
[...]
It's likely that the reason that Bob Dylan starred in the Super Bowl ad
for the Chrysler 200 is because it's the first Chrysler branded product
to feature digital radio (other Chrysler brands already have the
technology)
<http://www.radioworld.com/article/chrysler-sedan-to-offer-hd-radio/223251>.
Now that's a stretch. No mention of anything even close to HD Radio,
or any of Dylan's music in the commercial. The background music
http://youtu.be/KlSn8Isv-3M
True about the SB ad, but the HD Radio is clearly mentioned on one of
the Chrysler 200's web pages. I was curious about the car so I found
http://www.chrysler.com/en/2015/200/
Post by Jeff Liebermann
The adverts pitch line is based on "American pride", which I guess
means if you buy a Chrysler 200, you get to share and show some pride.
Bob Dylan is certainly an icon to the geriatric crowd (which includes
me). I presume only retired people can afford the Chrysler 200.
Why would you say that? The MSRP starts at $21,700 which is considerably
$2,090 for my 1st car, a new Citroën DS-19 in 1960, 1.9L 4 cyl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_DS
$3,100 for my 2nd car, a new Plymouth Gold Duster in 1970, 318 V8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Duster
$14,000 (approx) for my 3rd, a new T-Bird Heritage in 1983, 5L V8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Thunderbird_%28ninth_generation%29
$30,000 (approx) for my 4th, a new Olds Aurora in 2001, 3.5L V6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Aurora
I rented a 2001 Aurora from Enterprise for a week for a prolonged test
drive before I bought one; it was easily able to reach more than 2.3x
the speed limit driving Westwards at 3am in San Mateo at the "top" of
Hwy92 starting from El Camino noting that's a reasonably steep grade
and that uphill test cinched my purchase. I was putting 300+ miles
a week on it until my last 2 employers in San Mateo went belly-up and
the odometer shows 111,000 miles. I put over 200,000 miles on each of
my prior cars noting I change the oil and other fluids and filters myself
to be sure it's done correctly. I also ALWAYS bought the factory service
manual set for every car I've owned (the Aurora's is 3 large volumes).
200 LX, $21,700
200 Limited, $23,255
200 S, $24,495
200 C, $25,995
http://www.chrysler.com/hostc/bmo/CUC201509/compareModels.do
If I was in the market for a new car, the 200 might be one of the contenders
though not because of my age (noting I qualified for Medicare awhile back).
Post by Jeff Liebermann
maybe Dylan is suppose to represent a dinosaur like father figure from
a past generation. I dunno. Either the message is extremely subtle
and obscure, or it's a total screwup, or Fiat has a strange idea of
how Americans think.
I thought the commercial stank -- it would not compel me to buy one.
http://youtu.be/q3BGkOKVMUU runtime 2:09
http://youtu.be/LuDN2bCIyus runtime 9:52
:-)
Thad
And I'm on year 15 of my Subaru Forester.
sms
2014-02-04 19:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Why would you say that? The MSRP starts at $21,700 which is considerably
less than I paid for my current car, an Oldsmobile Aurora, in 2001.
MSRP is similar to a Camry LE, though the street price of the Camry is
well under $20K. Probably it won't take long for the Chrysler 200 to be
heavily discounted and rebated.

I would have guessed a much higher price since Chrysler is supposed to
be the luxury brand while Dodge is the "regular" brand.

One thing about new cars is that pricing has been remarkably stable
despite inflation. I recall paying nearly $17K for Camry LE in 1996,
about $3700 under MSRP and $1500 under invoice. A relative recently
bought a 2013 Camry LE for about $19K, which is about $3K under MSRP.
Besides inflation that extra $2K of street price since 1996 pays for
ABS, TPMS, a lot more airbags, VSC, and Bluetooth, among other stuff.

The average age of vehicles in the U.S. is over 11 years old.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-04 21:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
[...]
The average age of vehicles in the U.S. is over 11 years old.
I'm not surprised. If one takes good care of a car it should last
a long time. Of the 4 cars I've owned:

1. $2,090 for my 1st car, a new Citroën DS-19 in 1960, 1.9L 4 cyl
2. $3,100 for my 2nd car, a new Plymouth Gold Duster in 1970, 318 V8
3. $14,000 (approx) for my 3rd, a new T-Bird Heritage in 1983, 5L V8
4. $30,000 (approx) for my 4th, a new Olds Aurora in 2001, 3.5L V6

I sold (1) in 1970 to a guy in Milpitas and I had (2) and (3) until a
few years ago. A San Jose truck driver who delivered my fork lift
bought (3) for his sister and another person from San Jose bought (2)
and apparently made it into a show car (at least that's what he said
he was going to to -- I haven't seen it since).

How about a 114-year old car? It was the first Porsche and it was an
electric car with a 50-mile driving range before needing a recharge:

http://blog.sfgate.com/topdown/2014/01/29/the-ultimate-barn-find-a-114-year-old-porsche-yes-porsche/

Thad
sms
2014-02-04 22:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by sms
[...]
The average age of vehicles in the U.S. is over 11 years old.
I'm not surprised. If one takes good care of a car it should last
1. $2,090 for my 1st car, a new Citroën DS-19 in 1960, 1.9L 4 cyl
2. $3,100 for my 2nd car, a new Plymouth Gold Duster in 1970, 318 V8
3. $14,000 (approx) for my 3rd, a new T-Bird Heritage in 1983, 5L V8
4. $30,000 (approx) for my 4th, a new Olds Aurora in 2001, 3.5L V6
I sold (1) in 1970 to a guy in Milpitas and I had (2) and (3) until a
few years ago. A San Jose truck driver who delivered my fork lift
bought (3) for his sister and another person from San Jose bought (2)
and apparently made it into a show car (at least that's what he said
he was going to to -- I haven't seen it since).
How about a 114-year old car? It was the first Porsche and it was an
http://blog.sfgate.com/topdown/2014/01/29/the-ultimate-barn-find-a-114-year-old-porsche-yes-porsche/
P-1. Did you ever read _The Adolescence of P-1_?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1>
Thad Floryan
2014-02-05 07:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
http://blog.sfgate.com/topdown/2014/01/29/the-ultimate-barn-find-a-114-year-old-porsche-yes-porsche/
P-1. Did you ever read _The Adolescence of P-1_?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1>
Heh, no. Porsche's was named "P.1", different from "P-1". :-)

I agree with BYTE's comment on that P-1 Wikipedia page:

BYTE criticized The Adolescence of P-1 for what it stated were
unrealistic expectations for an artificial intelligence running
on 1970s IBM mainframes. It suggested that the author could have
set the novel in the 1990s and use fictional future IBM computers
to make the plot more plausible.

Hmmm, he could have set the novel in 2001 and named the computer "HAL"
or a bit further in the future, 2029, and named the computer SKYNET. :-)

Believe it or not, two factoids additionally persuaded me to buy the
2001 Aurora besides the results of my week-long test drive:

1. the year 2001 as in the 1968 movie of that name:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/

2. the name 'Aurora', an astronomical phenomenon like these among
many more at APOD (back to 1995):

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131229.html Norway, time-lapse
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131228.html Alaska, amazing
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131218.html Finland
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131214.html
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131118.html Iceland
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131106.html Norway, amazing
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131031.html Iceland again
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap131005.html South Dakota

To understand why, look at my home page which I recently updated:

http://thadlabs.com

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-05 00:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Jeff Liebermann
http://youtu.be/KlSn8Isv-3M
(...)
Post by Thad Floryan
True about the SB ad, but the HD Radio is clearly mentioned on one of
the Chrysler 200's web pages.
I didn't look at the web pages. I only saw the YouTube recreation of
the Super Bowl video.
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Jeff Liebermann
The adverts pitch line is based on "American pride", which I guess
means if you buy a Chrysler 200, you get to share and show some pride.
Bob Dylan is certainly an icon to the geriatric crowd (which includes
me). I presume only retired people can afford the Chrysler 200.
Why would you say that? The MSRP starts at $21,700 which is considerably
less than I paid for my current car, an Oldsmobile Aurora, in 2001.
I assumed that using a 1960's icon would appeal more to an older
buying audience than someone younger. I also had no idea what the car
sells for when I saw the commercial. It looks expensive. I watched
the commercial more closely, trying to determine the target audience,
if any. I can't. It's a mix of older icons and kids. Even worse,
Dylan's chant builds up to a climax where at 1:50 into the commercial,
he stands in front of about 15 factory workers proclaiming "We will
build your car". That implies that they won't buy the car, just build
it. The workers are roughly equally distributed from ages 45 to about
65, which suggests only that it's not a young persons car. Frankly,
I'm confused and a bit lost. As I mentioned, it's either very subtle,
or badly off target.
Post by Thad Floryan
If I was in the market for a new car, the 200 might be one of the contenders
though not because of my age (noting I qualified for Medicare awhile back).
The auto industry has been working for many years trying to convince
buyers that a car should not be considered an investment. Thanks for
resisting. My last new car was in 1972.
Post by Thad Floryan
I thought the commercial stank -- it would not compel me to buy one.
That's not the purpose of the commercial. It's to give you a
favorable opinion of the car or the manufacturer so that when you
later decide to buy a car, you will remember that Fiat-Chrysler
produced a cool commercial, featuring one of your childhood heros.
While it won't sell you a particular car, will help with the final
decision. The car was featured in the video for all of 5 seconds
total out of 120 seconds. It's not about the car.

Hint: Read any of the books by Wilson Bryan Key, especially
"Subliminal Seduction".
Post by Thad Floryan
http://youtu.be/q3BGkOKVMUU runtime 2:09
http://youtu.be/LuDN2bCIyus runtime 9:52
I would hate to be paying your insurance premiums. I prefer a "safe"
car, something like this:
26:53 min.
The fun starts at 21:60. It doesn't go very fast, but it turns on a
dime and nothing gets in its way.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Thad Floryan
2014-02-05 04:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
http://youtu.be/q3BGkOKVMUU runtime 2:09
http://youtu.be/LuDN2bCIyus runtime 9:52
I would hate to be paying your insurance premiums.
I cited those two URLs as a joke. :-)
Post by Jeff Liebermann
I prefer a "safe" car
My family's 1956 Ford Fairlane V8 had front lap belts but the
dealer had to install them after-market as I recall.

My 1960 Citroën DS-19 had no belts but I had done a lot of research
before buying it -- this was l-o-n-g before the ARPANET and several
years before I began using computers. Long story short, I learned
that Volvo was installing 3-point seat belts in cars beginning in the
late 1950s and what I read about them impressed me very much, so much
so that I ordered 2 sets from Germany and installed them for the front
seats in the Citroën myself.

The 1970 Plymouth Duster had only lap belts but the 1983 Thunderbird
did have 3-point belts as does my 2001 Aurora.

As far as insurance premiums, mine are probably the lowest (from USAA)
given only 1 traffic ticket in the mid-1970s during the phony oil
shortage after I left Tower Records in Campbell and was heading home
North on I-280. I was cited for 63MPH, I took it to court in San Jose,
and it cost me $13 per $5 for the court costs plus $8 at $1/MPH over
the [then reduced nationwide] 55MPH speed limit.

I've never had any accidents and friends and neighbors always put their
kids in my car when we're going somewhere. My best friend's Dad would
also always pay my airplane fare and all other expenses to join him and
his wife in Denver so I could drive them in their 55-foot Coachman from
Colorado to Grass Valley in California for the annual Blue Grass Festivals;
sadly they passed away in the late 1990s so I don't have much opportunity
driving such large vehicles anymore.

So, yeah, I'm a good and safe driver notwithstanding my comment about how
I "tested" the rental Aurora on Hwy 92 at 3am one morning after work. :-)
Post by Jeff Liebermann
http://youtu.be/x7DFzl6ZU5k 26:53 min.
The fun starts at 21:60. It doesn't go very fast, but it turns on a
dime and nothing gets in its way.
Hah hah, that's cool -- I just downloaded it for my video archives!

Here's some more safe cars:

http://youdrivewhat.com/ready-for-zombies/
http://youdrivewhat.com/big-als-ride/
http://youdrivewhat.com/bumper-cars/
http://youdrivewhat.com/how-low-can-you-go/ <== will never roll over
http://youdrivewhat.com/blown-away/
http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/11/20/google-flying-cars-zee-aero/
http://blog.sfgate.com/topdown/2013/12/17/corvette-hits-200-mph-on-texas-tollway/

Hmm, I thought this video URL was cited in the above SFGate article but it
seems it's not; here's the video URL of the 200MPH Corvette from my archives:

runtime 4:51

Here's another fast drive with a BMW 850CSi at 300 km/H:

runtime 3:43

:-)

Thad
Thad Floryan
2014-02-05 06:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
http://youtu.be/x7DFzl6ZU5k 26:53 min.
The fun starts at 21:60. It doesn't go very fast, but it turns on a
dime and nothing gets in its way.
That's great: Motor Trends' ROADKILL Episode 17!

I was also very pleased to hear them say (which confirmed
my belief about it):

"The Prius is an environmental disaster when
it comes to manufacturing."

near the beginning of the video. I truly believe it.

Same with electric cars both during manufacture and
operation using electricity generated by polluting
coal-fired power plants -- electricity ain't free.

I'm curious though: is "PREE US" the correct pronunciation?

I've never heard anyone speak the name before and I've only
seen it in writing, such as in Gary Richards' ROAD KILL
column in the SJMN, and I assumed it was pronounced as if
it was spelled "PRY US". Just about every word in any
dictionary describes words beginning with "PRI" being
pronounce "PRY" (e.g., primary, et al.

Don't get me started, however, on "primer"; I grew up with
guns (my Dad was in the military. West Point grad) and I'll
always pronounce it as in PRIME ER as in prime beef.

Thad
Marcus Allen
2014-02-05 15:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
I'm curious though: is "PREE US" the correct pronunciation?
Yes, with the accent on the first syllable.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-07 00:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Marcus Allen
Post by Thad Floryan
I'm curious though: is "PREE US" the correct pronunciation?
Yes, with the accent on the first syllable.
Thank you!

Thad

Bhairitu
2014-02-01 20:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by David Kaye
[...]
I'm not fond of the interface changes and some of the bugs they've been
having recently, but they've cleared up the bugs and I see no current
problems.
[...]
Hi David,
It's not clear if you [also] meant Yahoo Groups above.
To date, these are the major bugs still not fixed with the
ill-designed/-implemented HTML5 crapola named Neo which replaced
the previously fully-functional Yahoo Groups web interface during
1. Group messages archives have been hosed. Code and script
examples are now unreadable due to all consecutive spaces/tabs
reduced to just one space,
2. formatted data tables are totally unreadable for the same reason
as (1),
3. the previous ability to "Use fixed-width font" has been removed
and everything retrieved from the message archives is returned
in a very poorly chosen proportional font which is unsuitable for
technical groups (astronomy, computer-related, math, machining,
photography, science, and more).
4. the Reply function (to messages in a group's archive) produces
non-standard and incoherent, non-attributed emails in direct
http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php
http://howto-pages.org/posting_style
which were properly performed prior to the Neo infection of
mid-August 2013, and
5. infinite scrolling. I didn't know what it was called until the
http://xkcd.com/1309/ Infinite Scrolling, and
http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1309 The explanation
Per the explanation, infinite scrolling is implemented incorrectly
and that's besides the fact it's insane to have it at all in the
first place when simple page flipping was previously possible, very
useful, and one didn't lose one's place as mentioned in the XKCD
cartoon.
I didn't list (above) the still-deficient owner/moderator capabilities
that are still hosed since those bugs only affect group owner/moderators.
As I wrote before, if such crap is what HTML5 brings to the web, the
Internet is doomed and I hope Yahoo bellies-up ASAP as punishment for
how they hosed everything in 2013.
Thad
Neo works better for mobile devices and that's probably why they did it.
However there is the weirdness that for some of us if we log in we get
the old interface not Neo. Log out, I get Neo again. Though a lot of
people would like the old interface back there is another set who get
the old interface who would prefer Neo.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-01 21:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bhairitu
[...]
Neo works better for mobile devices and that's probably why they did it.
However there is the weirdness that for some of us if we log in we get
the old interface not Neo. Log out, I get Neo again. Though a lot of
people would like the old interface back there is another set who get
the old interface who would prefer Neo.
I'm losing track of where I posted what, but there are two "interesting"
things:

1. for about a 24-hour period in October 2013, a bunch of us were using
the old interface via this URL which "somehow" leaked from Yahoo and
was posted in one of my astronomy groups due to all my NEO griping:

http://stage.groups.yahoo.com/group/${GROUPNAME}/messages/

but then Yahoo shut that site, "stage", the next day perhaps due to so
many people using it to avoid the NEO infection.

What this showed is that the message archives are still (at least in
October 2013) intact and undamaged and it's the buggy HTML5 NEO code
that 100% mangles everything retrieved from the message archives and
renders the message archives useless for any technical group. I am
one of the 3 owners of the Yahoo linux group and our message archives
go back to January 1998 and are now, with NEO, useless because all code
and script examples, tables, etc. are unreadable for the reasons I
posted previously.

2. in yet another astronomy group, one person claimed he hasn't been NEO'd.
A respondent replied (with no cites given) that Yahoo had ceased NEO'ing
people due to the cries and howls mostly from owners/moderators about the
deficient management interface and that Yahoo had been infecting people
with NEO in alphabetical order by last name which is why one of the group
moderators, whose last name was "Taylor", hadn't been NEO'd.

In regards to (2), I finally logged-in to Yahoo again earlier this week but
Yahoo would *NOT* provide my Profile or "Account Info" pages so I could see
if there was a way to opt-out of Neo.

Earlier in this thread one person mentioned 'Riss (Marissa Mayer) probably
doesn't even know what "Yahoo Groups" is and another wrote that Yahoo Groups
is apparently not a significant revenue producer for Yahoo thus Yahoo
destroyed Yahoo Groups much like Google destroyed Google Groups' Usenet
portions.

Seems both Google and Yahoo have no concept of "Good Will" -- offer something
really good for free to attract folks to the money-producing segments of their
operations -- which isn't rocket science.

What Yahoo has done to Groups has driven a lot of people away from anything
Yahoo forever, and that's a sign of very poor management and planning and a
lack of long term goals. My guess? Mayer doesn't care since she receives
millions whether she fails or succeeds with Yahoo.

And a big "Thank You!" to Jeff Liebermann who posted something very interesting
earlier today in this thread:

" <https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AYHOO&fstype=ii&ei=vijtUuChFM7diQLetgE>
" Looks like Yahoo is bleeding about -$600 million/year. They seem to
" have lost most of it (-$1.7 billion) from "financing activities". I
" have no idea what that means, but my guess(tm) is that they're playing
" the stock market or investing in other companies.
"
" See the graph at the top of the page. Click "cash flow" and "annual
" data". Note the trend line for "investing".
" [...]
" If my reading between the lines is correct, and they do nothing
" different, Yahoo hits zero in 2 years.

Click on "Cash Flow" in [Income Statement | Balance Sheet | Cash Flow] near
the top left to see what Jeff was looking at -- just about everything there
is in "red ink".

And that's the "belly up" we're all hoping and waiting for though I wish it
would occur sooner.

Thad
David Kaye
2014-02-02 01:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
And that's the "belly up" we're all hoping and waiting for though I wish it
would occur sooner.
Why are you hoping that Yahoo goes out of business? That would leave the
playing field largely to Google, the Devil Incarnate. Yahoo has been a
benign company; Google is evil. Plain and simple.
jonz
2014-02-02 01:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
...Yahoo has been a
benign company; Google is evil. Plain and simple.
I'm going to quote a portion of your reply to SMS earlier in this thread:

"Sometimes you say insightful things and sometimes you spout so much BS
that I wonder if there are two of you."

Sounds like a Pot...Kettle...Black situation to me.
Thad Floryan
2014-02-02 02:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Post by Thad Floryan
And that's the "belly up" we're all hoping and waiting for though I wish it
would occur sooner.
Why are you hoping that Yahoo goes out of business? That would leave the
playing field largely to Google, the Devil Incarnate. Yahoo has been a
benign company; Google is evil. Plain and simple.
Hi David,

I agree about Google.

I'm hoping that a Yahoo belly-up will encourage somebody new to take
over the role Yahoo Groups served well until last year regarding NEO.

From my point of view, Yahoo is a pimple on the butt of the Internet
and should be squeezed out and quickly forgotten.

Consider Yahoo's CEOs from Day 1:

Marissa Mayer (2012–present)
Ross Levinsohn Interim (2012)
Scott Thompson (2012)
Tim Morse Interim (2011–2012)
Carol Bartz (2009–2011)
Jerry Yang (2007–2009)
Terry Semel (2001–2007)
Timothy Koogle (1995–2001)

Musical chairs like that is a clear sign of a failing company run by
idiots. Current problem is that their latest CEO, Mayer, will make a
fortune whether Yahoo succeeds or fails, so what's the incentive for
her to succeed?

Note the dictionary definition(s) of 'Yahoo':

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/yahoo

an uncultivated or boorish person; lout; philistine; yokel.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yahoo

a person who is not very intelligent or interested in culture

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yahoo

a boorish, crass, or stupid person

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-02 06:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
And a big "Thank You!" to Jeff Liebermann who posted something very interesting
" <https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AYHOO&fstype=ii&ei=vijtUuChFM7diQLetgE>
" Looks like Yahoo is bleeding about -$600 million/year. They seem to
" have lost most of it (-$1.7 billion) from "financing activities". I
" have no idea what that means, but my guess(tm) is that they're playing
" the stock market or investing in other companies.
"
" See the graph at the top of the page. Click "cash flow" and "annual
" data". Note the trend line for "investing".
" [...]
" If my reading between the lines is correct, and they do nothing
" different, Yahoo hits zero in 2 years.
Click on "Cash Flow" in [Income Statement | Balance Sheet | Cash Flow] near
the top left to see what Jeff was looking at -- just about everything there
is in "red ink".
And that's the "belly up" we're all hoping and waiting for though I wish it
would occur sooner.
Thad
Thanks. Rumors of Yahoo's eventual demise might be a bit premature.
While we're all splitting hairs about the usefulness of the interface,
of the high profile musical chairs to keep the media fixated on
trivia, and while I'm still trying to find out who or what Yahoo is
supporting with a big loss from "financial activities", we have a
something else of interest. Yahoo owns some of Alibaba.com which
seems to be poised to go public.
<http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/12/10/alibaba-yahoo-stocks/3956241/>
Yahoo's 24% piece of the pie is worth between $26.4 and $36 billion,
assuming underwriters and Wall Street support the initial IPO. I
suppose a few billion dollars might keep the good ship Yahoo afloat a
while longer.

Hint: Follow the money.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Eric Weaver
2014-02-03 15:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Hint: Follow the money.
Indeed. I believe the cash outflow you noted was in fact for the
acquisitions of companies such as Tumblr, not an operational loss. If
the Hoo were making massive operational losses, I'd expect to be seeing
it in places like TechNatter and Re/Hash.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-03 15:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Eric Weaver
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Hint: Follow the money.
Indeed. I believe the cash outflow you noted was in fact for the
acquisitions of companies such as Tumblr, not an operational loss. If
the Hoo were making massive operational losses, I'd expect to be seeing
it in places like TechNatter and Re/Hash.
True. I don't have the value of some of Yahoo's recent acquisitions:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Yahoo!>
Tumblr was the big cash purchase at $1.1 billion. I also don't have
year end numbers, but it looks like Yahoo has $842 million in cash on
hand as of 3rd quarter 2013.
<http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=YHOO>
Note that they had $2.6 billion as of the end of 2012 which was before
the Tumblr purchase. The rest of the cash outflow could be attributed
to the other acquisitions.

So, I'll modify my statement. If Yahoo's purchasing activities
continue unchanged, Yahoo has about 2 years to go before they run out
of cash to make further purchases. That won't cause a collapse
because they could always pay with stock. While it's theoretically
possible to spend one's way to profitability, it's unlikely.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
2014-02-03 16:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
So, I'll modify my statement. If Yahoo's purchasing activities
continue unchanged, Yahoo has about 2 years to go before they run out
of cash to make further purchases. That won't cause a collapse
because they could always pay with stock. While it's theoretically
possible to spend one's way to profitability, it's unlikely.
There needs to be a strategic reason to spend money on a company whose
product or service is not going to directly generate the revenue needed
to justify the price. Google purchased GrandCentral because they felt
that they needed something to counter Skype and at least the voice part
of it is better than Skype (at least until May). Google bought Dejanews,
presumably for the archives and now has made it very difficult to access
those archives.

Yahoo seems to be taking the KGO approach: worsen the product in order
to lower the cost of providing it and willingly take the hit in terms of
advertising revenue. Yahoo's key problem remains their inability to grow
advertising revenue
<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/technology/yahoo-struggles-in-display-ad-market.html>.

Many people seem to believe that if Yahoo improved the services that
they provide that they would have more eyeballs and they could sell more
ads at higher rates. But apparently Mayer has some other way that she
thinks she can fix Yahoo.

Fixing Yahoo Mail should be a key priority no matter what the revenue
implications because it's causing terrible damage to the Yahoo brand
<http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/03/06/despite-its-efforts-to-fix-vulnerabilities-yahoos-mail-users-continue-reporting-hacking-incidents/#!uhen5>;
that is from last March and the hacking continues
<http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/yahoo-mail-breached-in-hacker-attack-usernames-and-passwords-targeted-1220455>.

With more and more people installing ad-blocking software on their
computers, tablets, and phones, the value of paying for web advertising
becomes questionable. But when Adblock or a hosts file stops an ad from
displaying does it still register as a hit to the provider. I bet it
does for the ads that the hosts file blocks.

Interesting that Google has removed Adblock from the Google Play store.
You now have to get it directly from the creator and install it from
"unknown sources."
Jeff Liebermann
2014-02-04 01:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by sms
Fixing Yahoo Mail should be a key priority no matter what the revenue
implications because it's causing terrible damage to the Yahoo brand
(...)

No kidding. I just wasted about an hour trying to figure out why I no
longer have access to a Yahoo account. It's an old pacbell.net
account, which was transfered to Yahoo when my office pulled the plug
on AT&T DSL. Yahoo says to have AT&T fix it. AT&T (chat) says to
have Yahoo fix it. I'll figure it out later.

I hate Mondays like this.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Travis James
2014-02-03 16:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Yahoo!>
Tumblr was the big cash purchase at $1.1 billion. I also don't have
year end numbers, but it looks like Yahoo has $842 million in cash on
hand as of 3rd quarter 2013.
<http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=YHOO>
Note that they had $2.6 billion as of the end of 2012 which was before
the Tumblr purchase. The rest of the cash outflow could be attributed
to the other acquisitions.
Q3 2013

Balance Sheet

Cash 842
ST Investments 987
LT Investments 4505
------
6334 million "banked"


Cash flows
Operating 298
Investments 1276

That's positive cash flow.

Also note "Sale Purchase of Stock" of 1,604 million. Those are stock
buybacks to reduce dilution. Companies comfortable with their valuation
and long term outlook buy back stock or pay dividends (or both -- see
Apple).

Yahoo! has issues, but they are not going out of business anytime soon.
Travis James
2014-02-02 16:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Click on "Cash Flow" in [Income Statement | Balance Sheet | Cash Flow] near
the top left to see what Jeff was looking at -- just about everything there
is in "red ink".
And that's the "belly up" we're all hoping and waiting for though I wish it
would occur sooner.
Thad
That's not what that means. It's just an indicator of how cash is
applied, not the loss of cash itself. See GOOG or AAPL.
Loading...