Discussion:
Ting Begins to Look More Attractive as Verizon Threatens to Lock Down their MVNO Partners Even More
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sms
2014-05-30 19:45:48 UTC
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Verizon is threatening to ban compatible devices that are brought over
from other carriers and flashed to work on their MVNOs like Page Plus.
For example, the Boost Mobile version of the Moto G is a popular handset
on Page Plus. It costs only $100 and it's easy to modify it to work on
Page Plus. It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone"). However
the Verizon version of the Moto G is for Verizon prepaid only and cannot
be used on Page Plus.

So it appears that Verizon really doesn't want to have MVNOs enabling
anyone to be on Verizon's network without being a direct Verizon
customer, either prepaid or postpaid.

I am looking at Ting again. Even though Sprint coverage is much worse
than Verizon coverage there are some ways to mitigate the problem since
Ting allows off-Sprint roaming for voice and text (but not for data).
There is an app called "Roam Control" which would essentially force
roaming onto Verizon in areas where Verizon operates at 800MHz. There is
also the new 800MHz LTE band that Sprint is rolling out that a few
devices (like the Nexus 5) can use.
Steve Pope
2014-06-01 01:08:30 UTC
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Post by sms
Verizon is threatening to ban compatible devices that are brought over
from other carriers and flashed to work on their MVNOs like Page Plus.
For example, the Boost Mobile version of the Moto G is a popular handset
on Page Plus. It costs only $100 and it's easy to modify it to work on
Page Plus. It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone"). However
the Verizon version of the Moto G is for Verizon prepaid only and cannot
be used on Page Plus.
So it appears that Verizon really doesn't want to have MVNOs enabling
anyone to be on Verizon's network without being a direct Verizon
customer, either prepaid or postpaid.
I think this is allowable under the recent rule change that
limits the consumer's ability to unlock phones on their own.

Steve
David Kaye
2014-06-01 02:17:02 UTC
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Post by sms
So it appears that Verizon really doesn't want to have MVNOs enabling
anyone to be on Verizon's network without being a direct Verizon customer,
either prepaid or postpaid.
I makes sense, doesn't it? Verizon and the other major carriers discount
their phones in order to bring in customers, but to do so requires that they
get their money back somehow, and that's through 2-year contracts for the
most part. One can hardly blame them for trying to recoup their investment,
so it makes sense that they don't want the phones they're selling at a
discount to be used with other providers.




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sms
2014-06-02 15:29:31 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by sms
So it appears that Verizon really doesn't want to have MVNOs enabling
anyone to be on Verizon's network without being a direct Verizon customer,
either prepaid or postpaid.
I makes sense, doesn't it?
Not really. Why should Verizon care if someone brings a Boost (Sprint)
Motorola phone over to a Verizon MVNO. In fact Verizon should be
thrilled that a competitor is subsidizing Verizon customers.
Steve Pope
2014-06-02 17:08:14 UTC
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Post by sms
Post by David Kaye
Post by sms
So it appears that Verizon really doesn't want to have MVNOs enabling
anyone to be on Verizon's network without being a direct Verizon customer,
either prepaid or postpaid.
I makes sense, doesn't it?
Not really. Why should Verizon care if someone brings a Boost (Sprint)
Motorola phone over to a Verizon MVNO. In fact Verizon should be
thrilled that a competitor is subsidizing Verizon customers.
Maybe such devices are more difficult to control by Verizon's network
as it atttemps to throttle, squelch, and otherwise screw around
with people's service.

Steve
David Kaye
2014-06-03 09:25:32 UTC
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Post by sms
Not really. Why should Verizon care if someone brings a Boost (Sprint)
Motorola phone over to a Verizon MVNO. In fact Verizon should be thrilled
that a competitor is subsidizing Verizon customers.
I believe you were talking about a Verizon phone not working on another
network. Here's what you said: "However the Verizon version of the Moto G
is for Verizon prepaid only and cannot be used on Page Plus."




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Jeff Liebermann
2014-06-02 22:17:33 UTC
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It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone").
Not exactly. Most 4G phones can be hacked to disable 4G and work on
Page Plus.

The problem with 4G is that Verizon, in its infinite wisdom, programs
the LTE phones to default to 4G. The phone will try to connect via 4G
forever, resulting in an inability to login to the network, and to
make a call. The problem would easily be solved if Verizon would
allow the user or MVNO to disable 4G, but that's not happening. Page
Plus is aware of the problem, but has decided not to irritate Verizon
by providing a workaround, even to their own dealers. So, people and
dealers resort to do-it-thyself solutions. Lots of how-to's on the
web and YouTube:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pageplus+4g>
<http://www.pageplusdirect.com/flashing_verizon_or_sprint_4g_device_to_page_plus_cyber.html>
etc...

The catch is that once the phone has been hacked for 3G only, the
firmware cannot be upgraded without first re-enabling 4G. The result
is that the phone is stuck with an old Android version. There are
some tricks to get around this, but they're not easy.

Drivel: My PagePlus phone bill averages about $15-$20/month for
300-400 mins/month usage.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Steve Pope
2014-06-02 23:17:37 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone").
Not exactly. Most 4G phones can be hacked to disable 4G and work on
Page Plus.
A CDMA phone with 4G should have a SIM card you could remove to
disable the 4G, making it resemble a non-4G-capable CDMA phone.

(Not something I have had occasion to try.)

Steve
sms
2014-06-04 08:14:02 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone").
Not exactly. Most 4G phones can be hacked to disable 4G and work on
Page Plus.
A CDMA phone with 4G should have a SIM card you could remove to
disable the 4G, making it resemble a non-4G-capable CDMA phone.
It doesn't work that way. Verizon bans the phones based on the MEID. To
get it to work you get the MEID of a non-4G "donor" phone and flash that
onto the 4G phone you want to activate. The donor phone can no longer be
used because it has the same MEID as the 4G phone (well as long as only
one of them was on a time it would still work). This is all of
questionable legality, but since you're not trying to have two phones
with the same MEID on the network at the same time it's probably okay.
Steve Pope
2014-06-04 17:55:02 UTC
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Post by sms
Post by Steve Pope
A CDMA phone with 4G should have a SIM card you could remove to
disable the 4G, making it resemble a non-4G-capable CDMA phone.
It doesn't work that way. Verizon bans the phones based on the MEID. To
get it to work you get the MEID of a non-4G "donor" phone and flash that
onto the 4G phone you want to activate. The donor phone can no longer be
used because it has the same MEID as the 4G phone (well as long as only
one of them was on a time it would still work). This is all of
questionable legality, but since you're not trying to have two phones
with the same MEID on the network at the same time it's probably okay.
Thanks.

Tangentially, I sometimes run into run into a situation with my
T-Mobile service wherein I have to disable 3G for the broadband
data to work at all. Large areas of San Francisco have this property.
The data will work in GSM and EDGE modes, but if the HSPA is
enabled, none of it works. (My phone is not 4G).

Steve
Kristian M Zoerhoff
2014-06-04 18:18:56 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
Post by Steve Pope
A CDMA phone with 4G should have a SIM card you could remove to
disable the 4G, making it resemble a non-4G-capable CDMA phone.
It doesn't work that way. Verizon bans the phones based on the MEID. To
get it to work you get the MEID of a non-4G "donor" phone and flash that
onto the 4G phone you want to activate. The donor phone can no longer be
used because it has the same MEID as the 4G phone (well as long as only
one of them was on a time it would still work). This is all of
questionable legality, but since you're not trying to have two phones
with the same MEID on the network at the same time it's probably okay.
Thanks.
Tangentially, I sometimes run into run into a situation with my
T-Mobile service wherein I have to disable 3G for the broadband
data to work at all. Large areas of San Francisco have this property.
The data will work in GSM and EDGE modes, but if the HSPA is
enabled, none of it works. (My phone is not 4G).
I've never hit that, at least in the East and South Bay. Where in SF do you
see this?

I'm using an HSDPA handset as well (HTC One S, Cyanogenmod as the ROM).
--
Kristian M Zoerhoff
Steve Pope
2014-06-04 21:30:39 UTC
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Post by Kristian M Zoerhoff
Post by Steve Pope
Tangentially, I sometimes run into run into a situation with my
T-Mobile service wherein I have to disable 3G for the broadband
data to work at all. Large areas of San Francisco have this property.
The data will work in GSM and EDGE modes, but if the HSPA is
enabled, none of it works. (My phone is not 4G).
I've never hit that, at least in the East and South Bay. Where in SF do you
see this?
I'm using an HSDPA handset as well (HTC One S, Cyanogenmod as the ROM).
The zone where this behavior is consisent is approximately from
SF Opera House / Davies, through Hayes Gulch and up into
the lower Fillmore (e.g. around Yoshis).

It could easily depend on the device. I'm using an unmodified
Sony Xperia U running Gingerbread, so not exactly up-to-date.

Steve
sms
2014-06-05 01:38:49 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
Post by Steve Pope
A CDMA phone with 4G should have a SIM card you could remove to
disable the 4G, making it resemble a non-4G-capable CDMA phone.
It doesn't work that way. Verizon bans the phones based on the MEID. To
get it to work you get the MEID of a non-4G "donor" phone and flash that
onto the 4G phone you want to activate. The donor phone can no longer be
used because it has the same MEID as the 4G phone (well as long as only
one of them was on a time it would still work). This is all of
questionable legality, but since you're not trying to have two phones
with the same MEID on the network at the same time it's probably okay.
Thanks.
Tangentially, I sometimes run into run into a situation with my
T-Mobile service wherein I have to disable 3G for the broadband
data to work at all. Large areas of San Francisco have this property.
The data will work in GSM and EDGE modes, but if the HSPA is
enabled, none of it works. (My phone is not 4G).
Confusing things even more, T-Mobile sells some phones that say "4G" on
the package but are not in fact LTE phones. Prior to T-Mobile having LTE
they were insisting that their HSDPA network was so fast that it was
actually "4G." I was going to buy an inexpensive Android handset for the
child unit to take with her to Israel because the only unlocked one I
have is a very old and slow AT&T Avail (ZTE-990). But I didn't want to
buy an obsolete phone.
<http://www.target.com/p/alcatel-one-touch-fierce-pre-paid-cell-phone-black/-/A-14875109>.
So the old one will do for now.

I ordered her a SIM card from Israel which arrived today but I'm not
sure what, if anything, needs to be done once it's inserted in the
phone. Does it just start working?
Steve Pope
2014-06-05 03:40:36 UTC
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Post by sms
Confusing things even more, T-Mobile sells some phones that say "4G" on
the package but are not in fact LTE phones.
Yep.
Post by sms
I was going to buy an inexpensive Android handset for the
child unit to take with her to Israel because the only unlocked one I
have is a very old and slow AT&T Avail (ZTE-990). But I didn't want to
buy an obsolete phone.
<http://www.target.com/p/alcatel-one-touch-fierce-pre-paid-cell-phone-black/-/A-14875109>.
So the old one will do for now.
I ordered her a SIM card from Israel which arrived today but I'm not
sure what, if anything, needs to be done once it's inserted in the
phone. Does it just start working?
Assuming the size of the SIM card (micro vs. mini) fits in the phone,
then probably it will just start working here in the US. Once the
SIM card is in the phone, you can see whether it connects to any
(US) cell networks, and if so can try sending it a text message
using the Israel country code (and possibly, an additional dialing
prefix; this information should be on the packaging the SIM
arrived in).

The international text message should not cost too much, hopefully $1
or less on each end.

It's possible however that the SIM wants to be in a phone that
is physically in Israel before it starts working, so don't
be too dismayed if the above test doesn't work.

Good luck

Steve
sms
2014-06-05 13:19:02 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
Confusing things even more, T-Mobile sells some phones that say "4G" on
the package but are not in fact LTE phones.
Yep.
Post by sms
I was going to buy an inexpensive Android handset for the
child unit to take with her to Israel because the only unlocked one I
have is a very old and slow AT&T Avail (ZTE-990). But I didn't want to
buy an obsolete phone.
<http://www.target.com/p/alcatel-one-touch-fierce-pre-paid-cell-phone-black/-/A-14875109>.
So the old one will do for now.
I ordered her a SIM card from Israel which arrived today but I'm not
sure what, if anything, needs to be done once it's inserted in the
phone. Does it just start working?
Assuming the size of the SIM card (micro vs. mini) fits in the phone,
then probably it will just start working here in the US. Once the
SIM card is in the phone, you can see whether it connects to any
(US) cell networks, and if so can try sending it a text message
using the Israel country code (and possibly, an additional dialing
prefix; this information should be on the packaging the SIM
arrived in).
Most of the country specific prepaid SIM cards don't offer international
roaming, or it's very limited. The one I got (Orange) appears to allow
it but you have to enable it and you can only enable it when you're on
their native network in Israel. I tried it and it won't register on the
U.S. GSM networks (I also tried calling the Israeli number but that
failed too).

And yes, it's the right size SIM (full size), and the phone is
quad-band, unlocked, GSM, and has been used in Asia, Africa, Europe, and
he U.S. with various SIM cards.

I have a global SIM card as well, but it's very expensive for Israel
<http://www.maxroam.com/Info/Rates.aspx>. Not outrageous for most of
Europe (34¢/min out, 12¢/in) but for Israel it's ($4.07/min out, $2.17/in).

Too bad Page Plus doesn't offer much international roaming since most
Asian countries have both CDMA and GSM networks.
Steve Pope
2014-06-05 18:50:53 UTC
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Post by sms
Most of the country specific prepaid SIM cards don't offer international
roaming, or it's very limited. The one I got (Orange) appears to allow
it but you have to enable it and you can only enable it when you're on
their native network in Israel. I tried it and it won't register on the
U.S. GSM networks (I also tried calling the Israeli number but that
failed too).
And yes, it's the right size SIM (full size), and the phone is
quad-band, unlocked, GSM, and has been used in Asia, Africa, Europe, and
he U.S. with various SIM cards.
Yeah, I was suspicious that that would be the case. But, you may
still see that the phone functions and can see cell towers, implying
a very high chance of it working once it is in Israel.

Tangentially, I found that one of my Italian SIM cards functioned better
while at SFO (International terminal) that it did in Berkeley.
Including the network sent it texts describing the roaming rates.
But, I first enabled it in Italy, so it's not a counterexample to
what you describe.


Steve
sms
2014-06-06 01:46:28 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
Most of the country specific prepaid SIM cards don't offer international
roaming, or it's very limited. The one I got (Orange) appears to allow
it but you have to enable it and you can only enable it when you're on
their native network in Israel. I tried it and it won't register on the
U.S. GSM networks (I also tried calling the Israeli number but that
failed too).
And yes, it's the right size SIM (full size), and the phone is
quad-band, unlocked, GSM, and has been used in Asia, Africa, Europe, and
he U.S. with various SIM cards.
Yeah, I was suspicious that that would be the case. But, you may
still see that the phone functions and can see cell towers, implying
a very high chance of it working once it is in Israel.
Yes, it sees the GSM towers, it just can't register on them.

One odd thing about the Israeli SIM is that I can't register online to
add money because I need an Israeli ID number which of course I don't
have (an ID number for a person, not for the phone or anything). Yet
they are happy to sell a SIM, with value on it, to someone without an ID
number.
Post by Steve Pope
Tangentially, I found that one of my Italian SIM cards functioned better
while at SFO (International terminal) that it did in Berkeley.
Including the network sent it texts describing the roaming rates.
But, I first enabled it in Italy, so it's not a counterexample to
what you describe.
In China I was getting helpful text messages in Chinese, more than I get
in English messages in the U.S..
Steve Pope
2014-06-06 14:24:11 UTC
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Post by sms
One odd thing about the Israeli SIM is that I can't register online to
add money because I need an Israeli ID number which of course I don't
have (an ID number for a person, not for the phone or anything). Yet
they are happy to sell a SIM, with value on it, to someone without an ID
number.
I guess they want to trace each SIM to an individual; I
recall Switzerland requiring something like that. It included
needing a "permanent address" in Switzerland, or some such.
In fact, the transaction never succeeded; the vendor spent 20
minutes entering my passport info, ITU visitor badge, address,
etc. into his POS terminal but it never came back with an
authorization code.

It is a good idea to already have a working SIM before entering
Switzerland.

Steve
sms
2014-06-06 16:05:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
One odd thing about the Israeli SIM is that I can't register online to
add money because I need an Israeli ID number which of course I don't
have (an ID number for a person, not for the phone or anything). Yet
they are happy to sell a SIM, with value on it, to someone without an ID
number.
I guess they want to trace each SIM to an individual; I
recall Switzerland requiring something like that. It included
needing a "permanent address" in Switzerland, or some such.
In fact, the transaction never succeeded; the vendor spent 20
minutes entering my passport info, ITU visitor badge, address,
etc. into his POS terminal but it never came back with an
authorization code.
It is a good idea to already have a working SIM before entering
Switzerland.
Steve
Taiwan has gone back and forth. They used to sell SIM cards at 7-11 and
you filled out a short form with your identity information. Then they
said that too many criminals were using prepaid SIM cards so they made
people go to the carrier's office and present two forms of ID. Now I
understand that they've gone back to allowing the SIM cards to be sold
at 7-11. And there are a LOT of 7-11s in Taiwan--you can literally see
the next one down the street from the one you're in front of.
(null)
2014-06-05 05:31:27 UTC
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Post by sms
child unit to take with her to Israel because the only unlocked one I
have is a very old and slow AT&T Avail (ZTE-990). But I didn't want to
buy an obsolete phone.
<http://www.target.com/p/alcatel-one-touch-fierce-pre-paid-cell-phone-black/-/A-14875109>.
So the old one will do for now.
I ordered her a SIM card from Israel which arrived today but I'm not
sure what, if anything, needs to be done once it's inserted in the
phone. Does it just start working?
Does your phone support Israel's 900Mhz/1800Mhz frequencies and not just
the 850Mhz/1900Mhz bands used in the Americas?
Steve Pope
2014-06-05 05:37:50 UTC
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Post by (null)
Post by sms
I ordered her a SIM card from Israel which arrived today but I'm not
sure what, if anything, needs to be done once it's inserted in the
phone. Does it just start working?
Does your phone support Israel's 900Mhz/1800Mhz frequencies and not just
the 850Mhz/1900Mhz bands used in the Americas?
My experience (in Italy, which uses 900 MHz) is that while coverage
will be worse (sometimes, much worse) without a 900-capable phone,
there is still some coverage. There is some usage of 850, 1900 and
2100 bands even in countries that first rolled out in the 900 band.

But obviously, you ideally want a worldband phone for something like this.
You also want a phone with WiFi.


Steve
sms
2014-06-10 19:41:59 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by sms
It's one of the only current, brand new, phones that will
work Page Plus because it's 3G only (4G LTE capable phones can't be used
on Page Plus without some serious flashing and a "donor phone").
Not exactly. Most 4G phones can be hacked to disable 4G and work on
Page Plus.
The problem with 4G is that Verizon, in its infinite wisdom, programs
the LTE phones to default to 4G. The phone will try to connect via 4G
forever, resulting in an inability to login to the network, and to
make a call. The problem would easily be solved if Verizon would
allow the user or MVNO to disable 4G, but that's not happening. Page
Plus is aware of the problem, but has decided not to irritate Verizon
by providing a workaround, even to their own dealers. So, people and
dealers resort to do-it-thyself solutions. Lots of how-to's on the
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pageplus+4g>
<http://www.pageplusdirect.com/flashing_verizon_or_sprint_4g_device_to_page_plus_cyber.html>
etc...
The catch is that once the phone has been hacked for 3G only, the
firmware cannot be upgraded without first re-enabling 4G. The result
is that the phone is stuck with an old Android version. There are
some tricks to get around this, but they're not easy.
Drivel: My PagePlus phone bill averages about $15-$20/month for
300-400 mins/month usage.
I bit the bullet and am paying for the $29.95 plan for three of us, $12
for one of us. The 250 minute allowance wasn't sufficient on the $12
plan. So I'm now paying about $100 per month for four Android phones
which is too much. On Ting I think I'd be at about $60 per month but of
course there is the initial cost of buying compatible handsets.

The standard complaint on Sprint, and presumably Ting, is that even
though they permit Verizon roaming (voice/text only on Ting), the phone
won't roam if it detects even the slightest Sprint signal even if the
signal is too weak to place or receive calls. Since Sprint operates at
1900 MHz, and has fewer towers than Verizon, coverage is guaranteed to
be much poorer in most areas. Sprint consistently gets much poorer
ratings than Verizon or AT&T for coverage.

Sprint phones used to have a way to force roaming but of course Sprint
doesn't want its customers to roam because it costs them money so that
feature isn't present on any newer phones.

There are two ways to force Verizon roaming on Sprint/Ting:
1) Turn off the 1900 MHz CDMA Radio (except in areas where Verizon is
1900MHz only like most of Florida). The Roam Control app does this but
it works only on a limited number of phones.

2) Modify the PRL to one that allows roaming onto Verizon towers.

Sprint/Ting will be very unhappy if you are constantly roaming onto
Verizon so forced roaming should be used sparingly, and if you modify
the PRL it's not a change you can easily make as the need arises.

For now I'm sticking with Page Plus, but unless they do something about
the handset situation I will leave. It's not just that I can only use
older phones, it's that the older phones no longer have fresh
replacement batteries available and old-stock Li-Ion batteries are not good.

I'm waiting for Ting to support more phones with the new Sprint LTE band
<http://www.engadget.com/2013/12/18/ting-sprint-spark-lte-select-phones/>.
The Nexus 5 now supports it, and is a good deal as far as unsubsidized
smart phones go, but it's still a tad pricey. But at least it's usable
with GSM networks as well so I could use it when traveling, or move to
Cricket if Ting proved unusable.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-06-11 14:29:12 UTC
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Post by sms
Sprint/Ting will be very unhappy if you are constantly roaming onto
Verizon so forced roaming should be used sparingly, and if you modify
the PRL it's not a change you can easily make as the need arises.
Yep and it gets worse. One of my friends had Sprint service on 5
assorted handsets 2 of which are smartphones. He lives in Bonny Doon
which has zero Sprint service and only marginal Verizon service. On
his way to work and back, he passes exactly two Sprint towers.
Coverage elsewhere is roaming into Verizon. About 2 years ago, he got
a letter from Sprint informing him that since the family use was
almost totally roaming into the Verizon system, they're discontinuing
his account and recommended that he move to Verizon (at a higher
rate). Sprint pulled the plug a month later. I later inquired at a
Sprint dealer as to the details of this policy, and was told that this
was the first they had heard of this. I haven't pursued it further.
Post by sms
For now I'm sticking with Page Plus, but unless they do something about
the handset situation I will leave. It's not just that I can only use
older phones, it's that the older phones no longer have fresh
replacement batteries available and old-stock Li-Ion batteries are not good.
I haven't had any problems getting replacement batteries on
smartphones of any type. However, old conventional phones are
becoming a problem. I previously posted some options for hacking
smartphones in order to disable 4G for PagePlus.

I've done Frankenstein style battery rebuilds on some older batteries.
It's fairly simple with the smaller cell phone batteries, but tricky
with higher capacity smartphone batteries. The old Samsung and LG
batteries are the easiest, by simply unwrapping the tape package,
replacing the cell, resoldering, re-wrap with mylar tape, and test.
I've only done 4 of these for my own phones (VX8300) and only use 1
regularly. No problems except for finding Li-Ion cells.

Raising the dead:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_service_cell_phone_batteries>
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
sms
2014-06-11 16:26:01 UTC
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On 6/11/2014 7:29 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Yep and it gets worse. One of my friends had Sprint service on 5
assorted handsets 2 of which are smartphones. He lives in Bonny Doon
which has zero Sprint service and only marginal Verizon service. On
his way to work and back, he passes exactly two Sprint towers.
Coverage elsewhere is roaming into Verizon. About 2 years ago, he got
a letter from Sprint informing him that since the family use was
almost totally roaming into the Verizon system, they're discontinuing
his account and recommended that he move to Verizon (at a higher
rate). Sprint pulled the plug a month later. I later inquired at a
Sprint dealer as to the details of this policy, and was told that this
was the first they had heard of this. I haven't pursued it further.
The Law of Supply and Demand According to Verizon:

We have all the supply so we can demand whatever the $#%& we want.
Roy
2014-06-11 17:08:59 UTC
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Post by sms
<snip>
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Yep and it gets worse. One of my friends had Sprint service on 5
assorted handsets 2 of which are smartphones. He lives in Bonny Doon
which has zero Sprint service and only marginal Verizon service. On
his way to work and back, he passes exactly two Sprint towers.
Coverage elsewhere is roaming into Verizon. About 2 years ago, he got
a letter from Sprint informing him that since the family use was
almost totally roaming into the Verizon system, they're discontinuing
his account and recommended that he move to Verizon (at a higher
rate). Sprint pulled the plug a month later. I later inquired at a
Sprint dealer as to the details of this policy, and was told that this
was the first they had heard of this. I haven't pursued it further.
We have all the supply so we can demand whatever the $#%& we want.
So Sprint costs less but they don't have the coverage. Now you know why
they are cheaper.

A slight variation on the mantra: Reliable, Wide coverage, cheap: Pick two
sms
2014-06-11 17:27:17 UTC
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On 6/11/2014 7:29 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Yep and it gets worse. One of my friends had Sprint service on 5
assorted handsets 2 of which are smartphones. He lives in Bonny Doon
which has zero Sprint service and only marginal Verizon service. On
his way to work and back, he passes exactly two Sprint towers.
Coverage elsewhere is roaming into Verizon. About 2 years ago, he got
a letter from Sprint informing him that since the family use was
almost totally roaming into the Verizon system, they're discontinuing
his account and recommended that he move to Verizon (at a higher
rate). Sprint pulled the plug a month later. I later inquired at a
Sprint dealer as to the details of this policy, and was told that this
was the first they had heard of this. I haven't pursued it further.
AFAIK it's been in the terms and conditions for a very long time.

The only way I'd try Ting is with a Nexus 5. It's the only handset that
is compatible with Ting that a) includes all the LTE bands for Sprint,
AT&T, and T-Mobile, and will work on GSM carriers in the U.S. and
abroad. If Ting didn't work out then I could take the Nexus 5 to
Cricket. Four Cricket lines would cost $100 per month for 500MB of LTE
data plus unlimited text and voice. That's a bit less than I'm paying on
Page Plus now for three $29.95 plans and one $12 plan, and the $12 plan
is proving to be a bit small. On Ting I think I'd be spending about $90
per month for four lines, splitting 1000 minutes, 1000 texts, and 2GB of
data.

The problem with Cricket is that there is no roaming off of AT&T and
AT&T coverage is a bit worse than Verizon coverage. But on the plus
side, a lot of places where I'm roaming off of Verion on Page Plus (and
paying for voice roaming and getting no data roaming) would have AT&T as
the native network. If I was doing a road trip into non-AT&T territory I
could keep one emergency Page Plus phone activated at $30 per year.
Steve Pope
2014-06-11 18:11:41 UTC
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Post by sms
The only way I'd try Ting is with a Nexus 5. It's the only handset that
is compatible with Ting that a) includes all the LTE bands for Sprint,
AT&T, and T-Mobile, and will work on GSM carriers in the U.S. and
abroad.
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)

Of course, an iPhone is cost prohibitive for many of us.

I'd check to make sure the Nexus 5 can tether. The Nexus 7 cannot,
without rooting/flashing.

Steve
sms
2014-06-11 23:33:47 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
The only way I'd try Ting is with a Nexus 5. It's the only handset that
is compatible with Ting that a) includes all the LTE bands for Sprint,
AT&T, and T-Mobile, and will work on GSM carriers in the U.S. and
abroad.
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
That's true, but there are so many issues with the iPhone 5 I would not
go that route, especially on Ting or other CDMA carrier.
Steve Pope
2014-06-12 00:17:27 UTC
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spp wrote,
Post by Steve Pope
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
That's true, but there are so many issues with the iPhone 5 I would not
go that route, especially on Ting or other CDMA carrier.
I have not heard of uncompromised iPhones which support CDMA having
particular issues, but perhaps they exist.

What I have heard about, in the other direction is, for example, people
with a Verizon iPhone 5 figuring it should work in Europe because,
they think, any iPhone is at minimum a worldband GSM phone.

Steve
sms
2014-06-12 01:01:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
spp wrote,
Post by Steve Pope
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
That's true, but there are so many issues with the iPhone 5 I would not
go that route, especially on Ting or other CDMA carrier.
I have not heard of uncompromised iPhones which support CDMA having
particular issues, but perhaps they exist.
The big issue with iPhones on CDMA carriers is that there is not
simultaneous voice and data because Apple forgot to include a second
antenna and the ability to have the CDMA or GSM radio on at the same
time as the LTE radio. For GSM carriers, the iPhone drops the data down
to W-CDMA during a voice call but CDMA carriers can't do EV-DO data and
CDMA voice at the same time. Nearly all Android LTE phones have two
antennas and can have both radios on at the same time, though for some
reason on Sprint this doesn't work on their newer "Spark" models.

The other iPhone issues are common to all iPhones. Some of them are
being solved with iOS 8, though not all of them.
Steve Pope
2014-06-12 02:50:52 UTC
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Post by sms
The big issue with iPhones on CDMA carriers is that there is not
simultaneous voice and data because Apple forgot to include a second
antenna and the ability to have the CDMA or GSM radio on at the same
time as the LTE radio.
Oops!
Post by sms
For GSM carriers, the iPhone drops the data down
to W-CDMA during a voice call but CDMA carriers can't do EV-DO data and
CDMA voice at the same time.
Right. This makes sense now that you've explained it. Thanks.


Steve
Jeff Liebermann
2014-06-12 02:40:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
There are are many mutations of the iPhone 5. Only a few will do both
CDMA and GSM. See model list at:
<http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3939>
As far as I can tell, the A1429 is the only iPhone 5 that does both.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Steve Pope
2014-06-12 03:30:23 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Steve Pope
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
There are are many mutations of the iPhone 5. Only a few will do both
<http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3939>
As far as I can tell, the A1429 is the only iPhone 5 that does both.
Well, yes, but mostly only in the sense that any CDMA phone is locked to a
carrier. If the Nexus 5 is somehow less locked as a CDMA phone
than an iPhone 5 or higher, I am moderately interested in learning
how this was achieved.

I agree the 1428 seems to have left out CDMA entirely, as opposed
to disabling it, so my statement above is incorrect.

Steve
sms
2014-06-12 03:47:47 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Steve Pope
I would believe that a clean/unlocked iPhone 5 or better can also do
all this. (Except for some carrier-sold iPhones where they
deliberately disabled various modes.)
There are are many mutations of the iPhone 5. Only a few will do both
<http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3939>
As far as I can tell, the A1429 is the only iPhone 5 that does both.
Well, yes, but mostly only in the sense that any CDMA phone is locked to a
carrier. If the Nexus 5 is somehow less locked as a CDMA phone
than an iPhone 5 or higher, I am moderately interested in learning
how this was achieved.
It's achieved because Sprint is happy to have revenue from Nexus 5 users
but Verizon doesn't like the idea of non-contract phones. It's up to the
CDMA carrier to decide which phones to allow on their network.

Verizon knows that the reason they have so many customers is coverage
and that few users are willing to give up that coverage for any reason.
Steve Pope
2014-06-12 05:12:28 UTC
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Post by sms
Post by Steve Pope
Well, yes, but mostly only in the sense that any CDMA phone is locked to a
carrier. If the Nexus 5 is somehow less locked as a CDMA phone
than an iPhone 5 or higher, I am moderately interested in learning
how this was achieved.
It's achieved because Sprint is happy to have revenue from Nexus 5 users
but Verizon doesn't like the idea of non-contract phones. It's up to the
CDMA carrier to decide which phones to allow on their network.
My next question is: if Sprint allows a CDMA phone on their network,
does that preclude other carriers from allowing the same phone on
their network?

Or is this true for some phones, and not others?


Steve
sms
2014-06-12 05:24:25 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Post by sms
Post by Steve Pope
Well, yes, but mostly only in the sense that any CDMA phone is locked to a
carrier. If the Nexus 5 is somehow less locked as a CDMA phone
than an iPhone 5 or higher, I am moderately interested in learning
how this was achieved.
It's achieved because Sprint is happy to have revenue from Nexus 5 users
but Verizon doesn't like the idea of non-contract phones. It's up to the
CDMA carrier to decide which phones to allow on their network.
My next question is: if Sprint allows a CDMA phone on their network,
does that preclude other carriers from allowing the same phone on
their network?
Or is this true for some phones, and not others?
I don't think it precludes it but when it comes to LTE very few phones
have the same bands enabled so they won't work on different carriers
anyway (at least when it comes to LTE). The Nexus 5 doesn't support
Verizon LTE bands because Verizon doesn't allow it on their network so
there was no need to enable those bands (even though support for those
bands may be hidden somewhere).

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