Discussion:
How the NSA Plans to Infect 'Millions' of Computers with Malware
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Thad Floryan
2014-03-13 06:15:50 UTC
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Datelined today, March 12, 2014:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/03/12/nsa-plans-infect-millions-computers-malware/

It's a l-o-n-g article; read it and see the diagrams at the above URL.
Steve Pope
2014-03-13 06:27:12 UTC
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Umm.... so what?


Steve
Thad Floryan
2014-03-13 20:37:30 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Umm.... so what?
You can get some answers here:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/12/1738237/how-the-nsa-plans-to-infect-millions-of-computers-with-malware
David Kaye
2014-03-13 21:00:44 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/12/1738237/how-the-nsa-plans-to-infect-millions-of-computers-with-malware
I'm actually of mixed mind on all of this. Sure, there's a BIG privacy
problem. On the other hand, September 11, 2001, several planes attacked the
U.S., one nearly attacking the Pentagon and two bringing DOWN the World
Trade Center towers. I mean, THINK about this. Two of the most iconic
buildings in America were brought down and the seat of our military was
almost destroyed. And thousands of totally innocent people -- men, women,
and children who didn't even work for the government -- were killed.

On THAT level it's really hard to blame the NSA or any federal or state
agency (or those of other countries where attacks are even more prevalent)
to want to use every method at their disposal to make sure it doesn't happen
again.

AND THEN there was the Boston Marathon bombing.

That said, I have no problem with Edward Snowden revealing the extent of the
spying going on, for this simple reason: it alerts the terrorists that they
will have fewer and fewer options available to them, so they may as well not
even bother planning anything.

Can this kind of information stop terrorism, or at least slow it down?
Well, think of all the publicity that gets out about bank robberies. The
bad guys now know that money is traced, that tellers can easily put
exploding dye bills into money bags, and that there are security cameras
everywhere. When I was a kid you heard about bank robberies about every
month or so. Now? When's the last time you heard of a bank robbery?
Thad Floryan
2014-03-13 21:21:20 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by Thad Floryan
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/03/12/1738237/how-the-nsa-plans-to-infect-millions-of-computers-with-malware
I'm actually of mixed mind on all of this. Sure, there's a BIG privacy
problem. On the other hand, September 11, 2001, several planes attacked the
U.S., one nearly attacking the Pentagon and two bringing DOWN the World
Trade Center towers. I mean, THINK about this. Two of the most iconic
buildings in America were brought down and the seat of our military was
almost destroyed. And thousands of totally innocent people -- men, women,
and children who didn't even work for the government -- were killed.
On THAT level it's really hard to blame the NSA or any federal or state
agency (or those of other countries where attacks are even more prevalent)
to want to use every method at their disposal to make sure it doesn't happen
again.
Hi David,

Let's not ignore Ben Franklin's wisdom:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The terrorists have won. Think TSA (at airports) and what the NSA and
other 3-letter agencies are doing illegally on USA soil. And it will
become worse with security cameras everywhere, perhaps even to the point
of potty-cams so the NSA can see if you're eating too much and becoming
obese as the "USA nanny state" becomes ubiquitous. :-)
Post by David Kaye
[...]
Can this kind of information stop terrorism, or at least slow it down?
Well, think of all the publicity that gets out about bank robberies. The
bad guys now know that money is traced, that tellers can easily put
exploding dye bills into money bags, and that there are security cameras
everywhere. When I was a kid you heard about bank robberies about every
month or so. Now? When's the last time you heard of a bank robbery?
Relatively frequently, at least here on the Peninsula regarding Palo Alto,
Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Los Altos, Cupertino, and more per columns such
as the "Police Blotter" in those towns' newspapers.

I was actually stunned on a recent visit to my "home" bank branch in
Sunnyvale (at Mary and Fremont avenues) to see bullet-proof enclosures
surrounding all the tellers due to the number of armed robberies. Even
my local (Los Altos, 1st Street) Round Table Pizza recently experienced an
armed robbery.

The poor day workers congregating in front of Home Depot stores every
morning seeking jobs are often robbed by armed persons noting "armed" means
knives, baseball bats, lead pipes, and guns.

And it's getting worse as time moves forward.

Thad
David Kaye
2014-03-13 21:54:34 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
The terrorists have won. Think TSA (at airports) and what the NSA and
other 3-letter agencies are doing illegally on USA soil. And it will
become worse with security cameras everywhere, perhaps even to the point
of potty-cams so the NSA can see if you're eating too much and becoming
obese as the "USA nanny state" becomes ubiquitous. :-)
Let's look at the past, shall we? I grew up during the polio scare of the
late 1950s. The government had us line up by the thousands at a local high
school and take sugar cubes laced with Salk or Sabin (I forget) vaccine. In
just a generation, polio was wiped out in the USA. There's NO WAY that
would go over today. Too many people are concerned about the "nanny state"
and yet polio, diptheria, and smallpox are pretty much unheard of today.
They used to be a scourge. Today there are still people living who are
crippled from the ravages of polio in their youth.

More past: We lived in communities. Sounds good, no? Except that
everybody knew what everybody else was doing and it was as much a nanny
state then as now, in fact even more so. Thankfully I grew up here and not
in the Midwest or the South where you'd be ostracized from the community if
you didn't attend the local church each Sunday. But here there were still
situations where busybody neighbors would get after you if you didn't cut
your grass every week on schedule, or if you and your spouse had a fight,
etc. Put up wind chimes on the front porch? Heaven forbid! Too much
noise! Paint your house yellow? Oh the property values will plummet!

I remember a remnant of the nanny community some years back when I lived in
Portland. A TOTAL STRANGER, a woman in her 60s or 70s came up to me and
said, "You have a lot of men going in and out of your apartment, don't you?"
"Huh? What?" "Well, you live on Everett behind the apartment building?"
"Yes, but so what?" "Well, there's just a lot of suspicious activity,
people going in and out." "What on earth are you talking about?" Turns out
that she saw a few folks visit me to play bridge a couple times a week. I
guess she thought I was dealing drugs or something. That's one reason I
don't think I can live in Portland ever again.
Post by Thad Floryan
I was actually stunned on a recent visit to my "home" bank branch in
Sunnyvale (at Mary and Fremont avenues) to see bullet-proof enclosures
surrounding all the tellers due to the number of armed robberies. Even
my local (Los Altos, 1st Street) Round Table Pizza recently experienced an
armed robbery.
Well, if it's owned by Chase I think it's a company-wide policy. When my
local branches were Wamu, they did quite the opposite. They set up "teller
pods" with tellers doing transactions out in public. If you needed cash
they'd give you a code number which you entered into an ATM and got your
bills that way. When Chase took over they emulated the old Franklin Savings
model with the bulletproof plastic windows that Wamu still hadn't converted
to the teller pod model.
Post by Thad Floryan
The poor day workers congregating in front of Home Depot stores every
morning seeking jobs are often robbed by armed persons noting "armed" means
knives, baseball bats, lead pipes, and guns.
I'm finding it hard to sympathize with ILLEGAL aliens hanging out in front
of Home Depot. First, Mexico and other Central American countries do not
allow Americans to go work in THEIR countries and they do not allow
Americans to have residency status except for a few months at a time. A
friend is a bartender living in Mexico City. He comes up here twice a year
(total of 4 months) to work as a bartender to make enough money to support
himself in Mexico the rest of the year. He can't legally get a job in
Mexico because his skills (bartending, cooking, restaurant management)
aren't needed in Mexico. Plus, he has to exit Mexico for a period of time
before they'll allow him back in, even though he owns a small house there.

When Mexico allows Americans to freely work and live in Mexico then I'll
endorse Mexicans freely living and working in the U.S.

As to robberies, well, what's your point? Yes, robberies happen. Isn't
that a reason for more vigilance rather than less?
Thad Floryan
2014-03-14 04:02:49 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
I was actually stunned on a recent visit to my "home" bank branch in
Sunnyvale (at Mary and Fremont avenues) to see bullet-proof enclosures
surrounding all the tellers due to the number of armed robberies.
Well, if it's owned by Chase I think it's a company-wide policy. When my
local branches were Wamu, they did quite the opposite. They set up "teller
pods" with tellers doing transactions out in public. If you needed cash
they'd give you a code number which you entered into an ATM and got your
bills that way. When Chase took over they emulated the old Franklin Savings
model with the bulletproof plastic windows that Wamu still hadn't converted
to the teller pod model.
Hi David,

Interesting. Actually it's BofA with the bullet-proof plastic in Sunnyvale.
Two other closer branches in Los Altos I frequent (to make deposits or use
the ATM for cash for a haircut) don't have the bullet-proof plastic -- I
assumed glass but thinking about it again it appears to be Plexiglas or
Lexan based on the way holes and slots were cut into the panels.
Post by David Kaye
[...]
I'm finding it hard to sympathize with ILLEGAL aliens hanging out in front
of Home Depot. First, Mexico and other Central American countries do not
allow Americans to go work in THEIR countries and they do not allow
Americans to have residency status except for a few months at a time. A
friend is a bartender living in Mexico City. He comes up here twice a year
(total of 4 months) to work as a bartender to make enough money to support
himself in Mexico the rest of the year. He can't legally get a job in
Mexico because his skills (bartending, cooking, restaurant management)
aren't needed in Mexico. Plus, he has to exit Mexico for a period of time
before they'll allow him back in, even though he owns a small house there.
When Mexico allows Americans to freely work and live in Mexico then I'll
endorse Mexicans freely living and working in the U.S.
[...]
I agree with you on that.

I recently read that Santa Clara County (aka "Silicon Valley") is known as
Santa Claus County in Mexico due to all the freebies illegals get here which
includes welfare, free medical care, and more. For the curious, the US law
that provides free medical care at community hospitals is EMTALA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

which I've used (no medical insurance after my last two employers went belly-
up) before I became eligible for MEDICARE.

Lucky for me, El Camino Hospital, 2 miles from my home and qualifying for the
EMTALA provisions, is arguably one of the best hospitals on the planet per:

http://www.popsci.com/bown/2009/product/el-camino-hospital
http://www.popsci.com/bown/2009/gallery/2009-11/gallery-el-camino-hospital
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20091002005764/en/El-Camino-Hospital-Community-Celebrate-Completion-State-of-the-Art
http://www.mcdmag.com/component/content/article/117-news/198-new-state-of-the-art-el-camino-hospital-now-open-for-patient-care.html

All the large rooms at El Camino Hospital are one-patient only with HDTV,
free Internet, private bathrooms with a shower, and excellent food as you
can see in the photo galleries above and, of course, excellent medical care.

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-13 21:58:52 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
What Ben Franklin Really Said
<http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/>
Post by Thad Floryan
The terrorists have won.
We are all terrorists. Just ask the BHS.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Thad Floryan
2014-03-14 04:15:53 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Thad Floryan
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
What Ben Franklin Really Said
<http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/>
Hi Jeff,

Thank you VERY much for that link. I've had that "quote" in a text
file on one of my systems for a l-o-n-g time and I never bothered to
Snopes it because it "sounded like" what ol' Benjamin Franklin could
have said based on his other well-known pearls of wisdom.
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Thad Floryan
The terrorists have won.
We are all terrorists. Just ask the BHS.
"BHS"? Burgess High School in El Paso TX? That was the last of the
7 high schools I attended since my Dad was in the US military since
1934 to get a regular Army appointment to West Point from which he
graduated in 1940, and we moved around the world a lot.

Or did you mean DHS? :-)

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-14 05:25:01 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Jeff Liebermann
We are all terrorists. Just ask the BHS.
"BHS"? Burgess High School in El Paso TX? That was the last of the
7 high schools I attended since my Dad was in the US military since
1934 to get a regular Army appointment to West Point from which he
graduated in 1940, and we moved around the world a lot.
Or did you mean DHS? :-)
Yes, I meant DHS. I was in a rush and couldn't recall if it was a
bureau or department. So, I guessed... wrong.

Incidentally, I don't do much etymology (origin of common terms and
their mutation over the years) but am always entertained by the
exercise. I knew that the Ben Franklin quote was accurate, but
couldn't recall the original meaning and how it had changed over the
years.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
b***@MIX.COM
2014-03-14 16:41:45 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
What would Benjamin Frankin think..? Sorry to rain on anyone's parade,
especialy considering the sorry state of affairs into which the USA has
descended, but --

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/

| *What Ben Franklin Really Said*
|
| By Benjamin Wittes
| Friday, July 15, 2011 at 6:53 AM
|
| Here's an interesting historical fact I have dug up in some research
| for an essay I am writing about the relationship between liberty and
| security: That famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that "Those who would
| give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety,
| deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" does not mean what it seems to say.
| Not at all.
|
| I started looking into this quotation because I am writing a frontal
| attack on the idea that liberty and security exist in some kind of
| "balance" with one another-and the quotation is kind of iconic to the
| balance thesis. Indeed, Franklin's are perhaps the most famous words
| ever written about the relationship. A version of them is engraved on
| the Statue of Liberty. They are quoted endlessly by those who assert
| that these two values coexist with one another in a precarious,
| ever-shifting state of balance that security concerns threaten ever to
| upset. Every student of American history knows them. And every lover of
| liberty has heard them and known that they speak to that great truth
| about the constitution of civilized government-that we empower
| governments to protect us in a devil's bargain from which we will lose
| in the long run.
|
| Very few people who quote these words, however, have any idea where they
| come from or what Franklin was really saying when he wrote them. That's
| not altogether surprising, since they are far more often quoted than
| explained, and the context in which they arose was a political battle
| of limited resonance to modern readers. Many of Franklin's biographers
| don't quote them at all, and no text I have found attempts seriously to
| explain them in context. The result is to get to the bottom of what they
| meant to Franklin, one has to dig into sources from the 1750s, with the
| secondary biographical literature giving only a framework guide to the
| dispute. I'm still nailing down the details, but I can say with
| certainty at this stage that Franklin was not saying anything like what
| we quote his words to suggest.
|
| The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed
| to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial
| governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a
| power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for
| security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the
| lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise
| money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept
| vetoing the Assembly's efforts at the behest of the family, which had
| appointed him. So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a
| subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his
| capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands
| notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the "essential
| liberty" to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of
| today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a
| legislature in the interests of collective security.
|
| What's more the "purchase [of] a little temporary safety" of which
| Franklin complains was not the ceding of power to a government Leviathan
| in exchange for some promise of protection from external threat; for in
| Franklin's letter, the word "purchase" does not appear to have been a
| metaphor. The governor was accusing the Assembly of stalling on
| appropriating money for frontier defense by insisting on including the
| Penn lands in its taxes-and thus triggering his intervention. And the
| Penn family later offered cash to fund defense of the frontier-as long
| as the Assembly would acknowledge that it lacked the power to tax the
| family's lands. Franklin was thus complaining of the choice facing the
| legislature between being able to make funds available for frontier
| defense and maintaining its right of self-governance-and he was
| criticizing the governor for suggesting it should be willing to give up
| the latter to ensure the former.
|
| In short, Franklin was not describing some tension between government
| power and individual liberty. He was describing, rather, effective
| self-government in the service of security as the very liberty it would
| be contemptible to trade. Notwithstanding the way the quotation has come
| down to us, Franklin saw the liberty and security interests of
| Pennsylvanians as aligned.
|
| NOTE: The article I was writing when I posted this two years ago is
| available here. http://preview.tinyurl.com/pqjt7x6

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
David Kaye
2014-03-13 09:26:43 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/03/12/nsa-plans-infect-millions-computers-malware/
Not sure how much I believe this, but it'll keep me employed. I've yet to
find Windows computers that didn't betray some kind of evidence that they
were being used as bots(*). Usually the software is so bad it hogs the CPU
or it throws errors.

(*) I have a number of customers who have me check their computers on a
regular schedule, to be sure that everything is optimum, and I can't say
I've ever seen a polite bot that runs totally undetected.
David Kaye
2014-03-13 10:02:43 UTC
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Hmmm...now I'm feeling a little paranoid, so I dug out an old copy of
ZoneAlarm. It's hard for programs to get past it without the user being
aware of what's going on, especially when the red and green bars are
flickering and you're not doing anything...
Bhairitu
2014-03-13 19:22:34 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Hmmm...now I'm feeling a little paranoid, so I dug out an old copy of
ZoneAlarm. It's hard for programs to get past it without the user being
aware of what's going on, especially when the red and green bars are
flickering and you're not doing anything...
Or you can open the Task Manager and look at the network communication.
David Kaye
2014-03-13 19:59:42 UTC
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Post by Bhairitu
Or you can open the Task Manager and look at the network communication.
The beauty of ZoneAlarm is that there is an icon in the tray that flashes
red (upload) and green (download) activity graphs, so I can tell at a glance
what's going on no matter how many windows I have open. Plus, it'll alert
you if you want when it wants permission to establish a connection. ZA also
blocks connections to ports it doesn't like.

Looking at the log, it seems that as many times as I've told Bonjour to go
away, it keeps trying to make all kinds of weird port connections.
David Kaye
2014-03-13 20:26:53 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Looking at the log, it seems that as many times as I've told Bonjour to go
away, it keeps trying to make all kinds of weird port connections.
And I'm still trying to figure out why my XP's spooler subsystem keeps
wanting to talk to the network when I'm not printing anything. I have it
configured as wireless, but the printer and the spooler really don't need to
chat unless they're doing something. Well, I blocked that chat, turned on
the printer and printed out a document just fine. So much useless chatter!
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-13 21:53:28 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:26:53 -0700, "David Kaye"
Post by David Kaye
Post by David Kaye
Looking at the log, it seems that as many times as I've told Bonjour to go
away, it keeps trying to make all kinds of weird port connections.
And I'm still trying to figure out why my XP's spooler subsystem keeps
wanting to talk to the network when I'm not printing anything. I have it
configured as wireless, but the printer and the spooler really don't need to
chat unless they're doing something. Well, I blocked that chat, turned on
the printer and printed out a document just fine. So much useless chatter!
On HP LaserJet printers, the JetDirect driver uses SNMP to manage the
print server. SNMP wants to get statistics and status information
from the JetDirect cards and interfaces, which most of the traffic.
Use Wireshark to look for junk going back and forth on IP port 161.

HP also uses many other ports.
HP Jetdirect Print Servers - HP Jetdirect Port Numbers for...
<http://h20565.www2.hp.com/portal/site/hpsc/template.PAGE/public/kb/docDisplay/?sp4ts.oid=27310&spf_p.tpst=kbDocDisplay&spf_p.prp_kbDocDisplay=wsrp-navigationalState%3DdocId%253Demr_na-c02480766-2%257CdocLocale%253D%257CcalledBy%253D&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken>

Bonjour (multicast DNS) provides DNS name resolution when there's no
local DNS server. I think you can get it to shutup on a PC by adding
an entry for the printer name and IP in the hosts file. No guarantee
as I haven't tried it yet. However, most of the traffic is Bonjour
scanning for new printers which isn't going to go away.

I wrote this 14 years ago. Out of date, but still useful:
Print Server Port Numbers for Netcat
<http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/sco/lp/printservers.htm>
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2014-03-13 22:00:15 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
On HP LaserJet printers, the JetDirect driver uses SNMP to manage the
print server. [....]
Thanks. I'm using a Canon MX-432 multifunction. I like Canon because they
never load down the computer with lots of DLLs as HP does. And due to my
experience with shoddy HP computers and printers, I'll never have another
one in my home, and I dissuade my customers from buying them.
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Bonjour (multicast DNS) provides DNS name resolution when there's no
local DNS server. I think you can get it to shutup on a PC by adding
an entry for the printer name and IP in the hosts file.
Hmmm...the first time I saw Bonjour was when iTunes installed it. I noticed
Bonjour sending out info about what my housemate was playing on HIS iTunes
to my computer. That was just weird. When I shut down Bonjour, the
notifications went away. All this time I thought Bonjour was another of
those dumb Apple products...
Thad Floryan
2014-03-14 04:55:00 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
[...]
And due to my
experience with shoddy HP computers and printers, I'll never have another
one in my home, and I dissuade my customers from buying them.
Hi David,

I would agree about newer HP printers. scanners, and the like.

HOWEVER, HP used to make solid-as-a-tank printers that last nearly
forever. I bought my HP4050n in the mid-1990s and have printed over
100,000 pages on it so far -- its duty cycle is 65,000 pages/month:

http://thadlabs.com/FILES/HP_4050_Specs.pdf 49kB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/HP_4050_User_Guide.pdf 4.6MB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/HP_4050_Service_Manual.pdf 4.8MB

and mine is packed with 136MB RAM (the max) for processing complex
PostScript documents. And nearly every client I've had since 1995
had one or more 4050s in service because they're the ultimate reliable
printing workhorse. Even MemoryX [ http://www.memoryx.com/ ] whose HQ
is in Santa Clara CA and 9 other locations from whom I bought the extra
RAM for mine has scores of 4050s still in service as I noticed when I
visited them to buy the extra RAM for mine in 2010:

http://www.memoryx.com/location.html

I bought a LaserJet P2015dn in 2008 for its duplexing. It has/had two
problems:

1. PostScript implementation is flawed; I have to send print jobs
to the 4050 when they fail to print perfectly on the 2015. Note
this has only occurred for a handful of print jobs, but it's an
indication HP is no longer the quality company of yore.

2. Original firmware was a bit flaky. The 2015 would lose its IP
address about every 30 days or so (it's powered-on continuously
since I can print to it from any of the scores of computers in
my home office.

People who downloaded the alleged "fix" for the IP loss problem
*ALL* ended up bricking the printer. After Googling and reading
about that issue, I never downloaded the firmware.

HOWEVER, as Jeff wrote, LaserJet interfaces use SNMP and my 2015
is frequently doing "something" on the 'Net because I did specify
the router IP, 172.20.20.1, in its config. One evening I noticed
a flurry of activity (ca. 2009 or early 2010) and mine has never
lost its IP since. I suspect, but cannot prove, it downloaded and
installed a firmware update on its own -- this kinda blew my mind
and my 2015 is still working fine today -- because I never saved a
copy of the installed firmware version when I bought the printer.

Thad
David Kaye
2014-03-14 10:34:45 UTC
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Post by Thad Floryan
HOWEVER, HP used to make solid-as-a-tank printers that last nearly
forever. I bought my HP4050n in the mid-1990s and have printed over
In the interim, HP split into two parts and the "HP Way" and management went
with Agilent, the spinoff. What's left is a lame printer and computer
company. Agilent is a great company, especially in the medical measurement
field. (But then I'm a geek anyway...)
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-14 16:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by David Kaye
[...]
And due to my
experience with shoddy HP computers and printers, I'll never have another
one in my home, and I dissuade my customers from buying them.
I deal with whatever the customer owns. If they went to Costco to buy
a printer, the odds are in favor of an HP printer. They're difficult
to avoid, so I have to tolerate them. Some are absolute junk, while
others are more tolerable. I try to avoid inkjet printers of any type
as they tend to have more problems than laser printers. With the
price of color laser printers dropping, the break even point where the
initial cost of the color laser, is balanced against the high cost of
color inkjet cartridges, is now at about 10 reams of paper. (Details
on request).

I have several customers with Canon AIO laser printer fax/scan/printer
machines. All I ever have to do is clean them. The toner carts are
undersized but cheap. My only complaint is that front panel operation
is overly complex and potentially confusing.
Post by Thad Floryan
HOWEVER, HP used to make solid-as-a-tank printers that last nearly
forever. I bought my HP4050n in the mid-1990s and have printed over
I have 3 customers running HP4050n printers. The longest running
HP4050n was retired at about 250,000 pages. The HP4xxx series of
printers are far from perfect. Most common are the sticky solenoid
problem, which seems to affect many HP printers.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/hp4200/hp4200.html>
I just did the solenoid fix on an HP4050n. Note that the solenoid is
in the paper tray area, not in the main printer. The HP4050 isn't
particularly fast, so I prefer the 4100, 4200, and 4300 series. The
availability of cheap rebuild parts make these printers highly
attractive.
Post by Thad Floryan
I bought a LaserJet P2015dn in 2008 for its duplexing. It has/had two
The P2015dn works ok, but is very difficult to repair if it does fail.
Replacing the fuser film is a major project. It also has serious
problems with miserable soldering on the formatter board. There are
several YouTube videos on how to fix them with a toaster oven and
such.



I have several similar models waiting for me to find the time to fix
the formatter. The HP2xxx series of printers was HP's first adventure
into cheap laser printers. At least parts and service info are
available. The current crop of HP (black) laser printers are much
worse with no parts available.

Favorite laser printers (for the moment) are HP2300DTN and various
Brother color laser printers.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Thad Floryan
2014-03-14 19:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
HOWEVER, HP used to make solid-as-a-tank printers that last nearly
forever. I bought my HP4050n in the mid-1990s and have printed over
I have 3 customers running HP4050n printers. The longest running
HP4050n was retired at about 250,000 pages. The HP4xxx series of
printers are far from perfect. Most common are the sticky solenoid
problem, which seems to affect many HP printers.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/hp4200/hp4200.html>
I just did the solenoid fix on an HP4050n. Note that the solenoid is
in the paper tray area, not in the main printer. The HP4050 isn't
particularly fast, so I prefer the 4100, 4200, and 4300 series. The
availability of cheap rebuild parts make these printers highly
attractive.
Hi Jeff,

I suppose I've been lucky, then, with the HP4050n. Mine has had zero
problems in the almost 20 years I've had and used it, and at client
sites the only things I needed to do were to clean the innards and
occasionally do the rubber roller replacement kit. One did need a
new fuser circa late 1990s. Formula 409 on the rubber paper pickup
and rollers did wonders for quickly putting 4050s back into service.
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Post by Thad Floryan
I bought a LaserJet P2015dn in 2008 for its duplexing. It has/had two
The P2015dn works ok, but is very difficult to repair if it does fail.
Replacing the fuser film is a major project. It also has serious
problems with miserable soldering on the formatter board. There are
several YouTube videos on how to fix them with a toaster oven and
such.
http://youtu.be/26wrN9fGpNA
http://youtu.be/kPDSNqFGGmI
http://youtu.be/1USQY-9BKbE
Feel welcome to download these manuals:

http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_SW_Tech_Ref.pdf 8.28MB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_Service.pdf 9.00MB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_User.pdf 4.03MB

Thad
--
A sobering truth:
Loading Image...
Thad Floryan
2014-03-14 20:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_SW_Tech_Ref.pdf 8.28MB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_Service.pdf 9.00MB
http://thadlabs.com/FILES/P2015dn_User.pdf 4.03MB
[...]
BTW, the place to get manuals such as the above is:

http://www.eserviceinfo.com/

Larger manuals are in multi-part RARs requiring something like
Peazip to easily and quickly extract the resultant PDF from the
multiple RAR files. Peazip is free:

http://peazip.sourceforge.net/

" PeaZip is a free, open source file and archive manager.
"
" PeaZip is cross platform, available as portable and installable
" software for 32 and 64 bit Windows (9x, 2000, XP, Vista) and Linux
" (PeaZip is a desktop neutral application).
"
" create: 7Z, ARC, BZ2, GZ, PAQ/LPAQ, PEA, QUAD/BALZ, TAR, UPX, ZIP;
"
" open: ACE, ARJ, CAB, DEB, ISO, LHA, RAR, RPM and many more archive
" types (72 file extensions supported

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-14 23:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/
I use eserviceinfo.com heavily, but the multipart zip files and
misleading descriptions require some patience to deal with. I try to
find it elsewhere before trying eserviceinfo.com. For printer
manuals, I suggest:
<https://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals>
The web site is also a great source for printer related Q&A. The
owner, Moe, is quite experienced.
Post by Thad Floryan
http://peazip.sourceforge.net/
I'm addicted to 7-Zip. It works on multiple OS's. I haven't found a
reason to switch.

Incidentally, sitting in my palatial office is an HP Color LaserJet
CP2025 that was given to me because two service shops could not locate
replacement parts. What's broken is the weird shaped plastic mounting
for an optical interrupter. Basically, a 50 cent part. HP Partsurf
show no replacement parts for the printer other than the paper tray
and cords. I'm fabricating a replacement part out of Delrin, which
should be sufficient to get it going. This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.

See Section 1793.03
<http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1792-1795.8>
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2014-03-15 00:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.
Yup, the "HP Lost Our Way" Way.
Thad Floryan
2014-03-15 06:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
[...]
Incidentally, sitting in my palatial office is an HP Color LaserJet
CP2025 that was given to me because two service shops could not locate
replacement parts. What's broken is the weird shaped plastic mounting
for an optical interrupter. Basically, a 50 cent part. HP Partsurf
show no replacement parts for the printer other than the paper tray
and cords. I'm fabricating a replacement part out of Delrin, which
should be sufficient to get it going. This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.
See Section 1793.03
<http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1792-1795.8>
Hi Jeff,

I assume that color LaserJet costs more than $100, so the parts MUST
be available for 7 years after the product was manufactured per the
section 1793.03 you cited above.

I am not a lawyer but I can see that a lawyer defending HP would choose
"date of first manufacture" instead of "date of last manufacture" of a
given product model as part of his weaseling. :-)

I learned about "case law" in traffic court circa 1975 regarding my one
and only traffic ticket for doing 63MPH on I-280 when the nationwide
speed limit dropped to 55MPH for the manufactured phony oil shortage.

Point being, if similar precedent hasn't already been established in a
jury trial, it would be very expensive and time consumptive to take HP
to court.

I wish you success making a Delrin replacement part. I wonder if 3D
printers can create Delrin parts? I do know some 3D printers function
with metal deposition to make gears and such, but ...

Another interesting factoid: lots of gears that previously would have
been metal in, say, clothes washers, are now plastic (and presumably
Delrin or similar) -- it's all part of cost cutting.

Thad
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-15 16:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Jeff Liebermann
[...]
Incidentally, sitting in my palatial office is an HP Color LaserJet
CP2025 that was given to me because two service shops could not locate
replacement parts. What's broken is the weird shaped plastic mounting
for an optical interrupter. Basically, a 50 cent part. HP Partsurf
show no replacement parts for the printer other than the paper tray
and cords. I'm fabricating a replacement part out of Delrin, which
should be sufficient to get it going. This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.
See Section 1793.03
<http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1792-1795.8>
I assume that color LaserJet costs more than $100, so the parts MUST
be available for 7 years after the product was manufactured per the
section 1793.03 you cited above.
Yep. However, it's not being enforced. I occasionally get involved
with warranty hassles on behalf of customers. In general, it's fairly
easy for manufacturers to circumvent this law. I'll spare you the
details but if you need entertainment value, the next time you have a
warranty dispute with a manufacturer, try presenting them with a copy
of the California law. That has worked for me a few times. However,
watch out for out of state warranty service companies. If you decide
to sue, you get to sue them in their home state, which is usually not
worth the time and expense.
Post by Thad Floryan
I wish you success making a Delrin replacement part. I wonder if 3D
printers can create Delrin parts? I do know some 3D printers function
with metal deposition to make gears and such, but ...
I just happen to have a few blocks of Delrin handy. I could make the
part on a 3D printer, but it's simple enough that a few cuts on a mill
will do the job. I could also make something out of sheet metal. My
favorite machine shop recently shut down with the owner moving some
machines to his garage. I'm waiting for him to get a mill running
again (while he waits for me to deal with the 2 phase to 3 phase
conversion nightmare). So, the printer sits. I keep looking on eBay
for a parts printer, but that hasn't happened yet.
Post by Thad Floryan
Another interesting factoid: lots of gears that previously would have
been metal in, say, clothes washers, are now plastic (and presumably
Delrin or similar) -- it's all part of cost cutting.
Yep. If you're making millions of something, molded plastic is
cheaper.

I think I posted this rant in the past. The way modern consumer
product design works is to target a product lifetime and adjust the
design accordingly. For example, if a previous product had a part
that lasted longer than the projected lifetime, the part is then
"optimized" by cheapening the design or construction so that it fails
earlier. This is not as evil as it sounds as it is part of cost
reduction and usually reduces the sales price. Modern CAD tools can
do a fairly good job of predicting the life of a product. For
example, the life of an electrolytic capacitor can be calculated if
the temperature and operating characteristics are known. Repetative
cycling can predict a mechanical part lifetime. The end result of
such "optimizing" is that products tend to have multiple failures
around the projected lifetime period, where everything fails
simultaneously and repairs are uneconomical. If California law
required a 7 year product life (most states are 5 years), then todays
consumer products probably target an 8-10 year product life with
failures distributed according to some bell curve. For consumer
products, nobody designs for long product life these days.

Since everything revolves around the sales of replacement products,
also known as upgrades, there's no incentive to supply repair parts.
By preventing repairs, the consumer has no option but to buy a
replacement device. The large pile of relatively new inkjet printers
at the recyclers is testimony to the effectiveness of this strategy.
They break easily, but without available repair parts and repair
manuals, the only option is recycle and replace.

Sometimes I wonder if we're building a consumer paradise, or a giant
electronics garbage dump.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Marcus Allen
2014-03-16 04:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Incidentally, sitting in my palatial office is an HP Color LaserJet
CP2025 that was given to me because two service shops could not locate
replacement parts. What's broken is the weird shaped plastic mounting
for an optical interrupter. Basically, a 50 cent part. HP Partsurf
show no replacement parts for the printer other than the paper tray
and cords. I'm fabricating a replacement part out of Delrin, which
should be sufficient to get it going. This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.
The day might be coming when you can simply (simply?) "print" the needed
part on a 3D printer.
Jeff Liebermann
2014-03-16 16:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 23:35:24 -0500, Marcus Allen
Post by Marcus Allen
Post by Jeff Liebermann
Incidentally, sitting in my palatial office is an HP Color LaserJet
CP2025 that was given to me because two service shops could not locate
replacement parts. What's broken is the weird shaped plastic mounting
for an optical interrupter. Basically, a 50 cent part. HP Partsurf
show no replacement parts for the printer other than the paper tray
and cords. I'm fabricating a replacement part out of Delrin, which
should be sufficient to get it going. This is the new HP, where even
laser printers are now throw away and where the only repair parts that
are available are from scrap dealers on eBay.
The day might be coming when you can simply (simply?) "print" the needed
part on a 3D printer.
I can do it now, and I've tried it with an appliance part. If the
original part is available, it's easy enough to run it through a 3D
laser digitizer. The problem is cleaning up the data after its
digitized. On screen, it looks like a huge mass of triangles. If the
original part was broken, and had a crack in it, the digitized version
will also have a crack, which needs to be removed. It's often easier
to just start from scratch and use a drawing program (Sketchup) to
generate the 3D model. The problem there is that takes some time and
abilities. I'm currently lacking in both areas.

3D printing also has a time problem. It takes forever to make a large
part. This puts the value of 3D printing in doubt. It only makes
sense for small parts, in very small quantities, and if you have
available machine time. In other words, prototypes.

Another alternative is to search online in various 3D model
repositories. For example:
<http://www.thingiverse.com>
If you search carefully, you can find everything from gun parts to
keys that fit some rather sophisticated locks. (The value of a new
technology is primarily based on one's ability to abuse it). Right
now, milling it out of a block of plastic is easier. I might be
tempted to do that with a CAD drawing, but since I only need one,
that's another time burner.

Incidentally, I have been tempted to make one particular part with 3D
printing. The HP8640B signal generator uses gears that shrink and
crack.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/HP8640B/>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=hp+8640b+gears&tbm=isch>
Someone's hand machined replacement gears were selling for $75/ea on
eBay. Sounds like an ideal candidate for 3D printing, casting, or CAD
machining.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Thad Floryan
2014-03-17 22:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
I suppose I've been lucky, then, with the HP4050n. Mine has had zero
problems in the almost 20 years I've had and used it, and at client
sites the only things I needed to do were to clean the innards and
occasionally do the rubber roller replacement kit. One did need a
new fuser circa late 1990s. Formula 409 on the rubber paper pickup
and rollers did wonders for quickly putting 4050s back into service.
[...]
My 4050 was displaying "TONER LOW" on its LCD so I wanted to check
its other stats via its onboard web server. Hmmm, seems I can no
longer do that from WinXP or Vista or Win7 due to, presumably, a
JRE (Java Runtime Environment) issue. I can get a printed dump of
all the stats via the 4050's controls atop the printer but I wanted
to view it with a browser to save paper.

Turns out I had to use my ol' ThinkPAD iSeries running Win98SE to
do so using IE. I'm going to check it also with my Win2K box which
is my PhotoShop system but I haven't time to do so at the moment.

So it seems there's no real backwards/upwards Java compatibility
which thus renders it a POS that sucks dead bunnies through a straw,
but I need Java for a lot of important programs I mentioned recently
(e.g., PDFSAM (PDF Split And Merge), et al).

Seems Sun/Oracle really screwed the pooch with Java in general and
the recent "upgrade" to JRE 7 caused many folks to wail and gnash
their teeth -- recall my recent posting here how to restore 6u43
to get things running again. What's wrong with Oracle's Java team?

Note 6u43 and 7u51 can coexist on the same system.

Solaris programs from the 1990s still run just fine today. Even
a program I built in 2003 under Red Hat 9 x86 still functions fine
after simply copying the executable to my CentOS 6 amd64 system --
that was impressive to me because I didn't want to have to hassle
again with lexx and yacc (GNU flex and bison can't process the files
properly) on a Solaris system and bring the *.c files over to linux
for the compilation/build/install.

There's no such good design with Java, however. People should cease
developing in Java since it's obviously not as portable and compatible
as other languages (e.g., Python, et al).

Thad
David Kaye
2014-03-18 06:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
What's wrong with Oracle's Java team?
Larry Ellison. Ever worked with Oracle's databases? Bloated expensive
crap. MS's SQL Server runs circles around it.
Steve Pope
2014-03-18 12:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
Post by Thad Floryan
What's wrong with Oracle's Java team?
Larry Ellison. Ever worked with Oracle's databases? Bloated expensive
crap. MS's SQL Server runs circles around it.
Yeah, not sure why programmers didn't abandon Java the moment
Larry took it over.

Steve
Keith Keller
2014-03-18 15:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Pope
Post by David Kaye
Larry Ellison. Ever worked with Oracle's databases? Bloated expensive
crap. MS's SQL Server runs circles around it.
Yeah, not sure why programmers didn't abandon Java the moment
Larry took it over.
I am not a Java programmer, but every one I've talked to says that all
the other JVMs are even worse than Oracle's.

PostgreSQL is a nice database, but it hasn't really gained much traction
even after Oracle acquired Sun and MySQL. There's a lot of inertia in
the industry, and it's not always easy to move a project from one
language or DBMS to another.

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Travis James
2014-03-18 15:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
There's no such good design with Java, however. People should cease
developing in Java since it's obviously not as portable and compatible
as other languages (e.g., Python, et al).
Maybe on the front end. On the back it works just fine as well as for a
web framework (Struts, Spring MVC).
Steve Pope
2014-03-18 19:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Travis James
Post by Thad Floryan
There's no such good design with Java, however. People should cease
developing in Java since it's obviously not as portable and compatible
as other languages (e.g., Python, et al).
Maybe on the front end. On the back it works just fine as well as for a
web framework (Struts, Spring MVC).
I'm not a fan of Java, but it is way closer to being a real
programming language than Python is.

Steve
Bhairitu
2014-03-18 19:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Pope
Post by Travis James
Post by Thad Floryan
There's no such good design with Java, however. People should cease
developing in Java since it's obviously not as portable and compatible
as other languages (e.g., Python, et al).
Maybe on the front end. On the back it works just fine as well as for a
web framework (Struts, Spring MVC).
I'm not a fan of Java, but it is way closer to being a real
programming language than Python is.
Steve
I've moved code from C++ to Java to C# to Javascript. Internally the
code often remains the same and only the way the function is called
changes. Sometimes you need to do a search/replace a "->" with a ".".
Bhairitu
2014-03-18 19:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
I suppose I've been lucky, then, with the HP4050n. Mine has had zero
problems in the almost 20 years I've had and used it, and at client
sites the only things I needed to do were to clean the innards and
occasionally do the rubber roller replacement kit. One did need a
new fuser circa late 1990s. Formula 409 on the rubber paper pickup
and rollers did wonders for quickly putting 4050s back into service.
[...]
My 4050 was displaying "TONER LOW" on its LCD so I wanted to check
its other stats via its onboard web server. Hmmm, seems I can no
longer do that from WinXP or Vista or Win7 due to, presumably, a
JRE (Java Runtime Environment) issue. I can get a printed dump of
all the stats via the 4050's controls atop the printer but I wanted
to view it with a browser to save paper.
Turns out I had to use my ol' ThinkPAD iSeries running Win98SE to
do so using IE. I'm going to check it also with my Win2K box which
is my PhotoShop system but I haven't time to do so at the moment.
So it seems there's no real backwards/upwards Java compatibility
which thus renders it a POS that sucks dead bunnies through a straw,
but I need Java for a lot of important programs I mentioned recently
(e.g., PDFSAM (PDF Split And Merge), et al).
Seems Sun/Oracle really screwed the pooch with Java in general and
the recent "upgrade" to JRE 7 caused many folks to wail and gnash
their teeth -- recall my recent posting here how to restore 6u43
to get things running again. What's wrong with Oracle's Java team?
Note 6u43 and 7u51 can coexist on the same system.
Solaris programs from the 1990s still run just fine today. Even
a program I built in 2003 under Red Hat 9 x86 still functions fine
after simply copying the executable to my CentOS 6 amd64 system --
that was impressive to me because I didn't want to have to hassle
again with lexx and yacc (GNU flex and bison can't process the files
properly) on a Solaris system and bring the *.c files over to linux
for the compilation/build/install.
There's no such good design with Java, however. People should cease
developing in Java since it's obviously not as portable and compatible
as other languages (e.g., Python, et al).
Thad
There is some buzz going on about the HTML5 based Firefox OS. It just
got a ZTE Open phone which runs it to test development. The apps run
using Javascript (needed to brush up on it again). Their intended
market is the developing countries (the phone even comes with an FM
radio). There is a plan for a $25 smartphone which of course has folks
in the US asking "how 'bout here?"

The advantage is that these apps also run on Android, iOS and maybe
Windows 8 mobile.
b***@MIX.COM
2014-03-20 06:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Thad Floryan
My 4050 was displaying "TONER LOW" on its LCD so I wanted to check
its other stats via its onboard web server. Hmmm, seems I can no
longer do that from WinXP or Vista or Win7 due to, presumably, a
JRE (Java Runtime Environment) issue.
Turns out I had to use my ol' ThinkPAD iSeries running Win98SE to
do so using IE. I'm going to check it also with my Win2K box which
is my PhotoShop system but I haven't time to do so at the moment.
Yea, it's looking for a specific version of IE, as reported via
Javascript. I was thoroughly disappointed when I tracked this down,
after trying plenty of user agent strings and getting nowhere. I
don't know any way to patch what Javascript in some web browser is
reporting. It'd probably be easier to just hack the firmware.

Here's a dump of the relevant parts of the firmware (stuffed into
less than 80 column lines), wherein you can see what it'll allow to
work -

<html> <head>
<title>Hewlett Packard</title>
<script language="Javascript">

<SCRIPT TYPE = "text/javascript">

if(navigator.appVersion.indexOf("Macintosh")!=-1){
document.writeln
("Macintosh OS is not supported to run this application.");
document.close();
}

else if(navigator.appName=="Microsoft Internet Explorer" &&
(navigator.appVersion.indexOf("MSIE 3.01") != -1 ||
navigator.appVersion.indexOf("MSIE 3.02") != -1 ||
navigator.appVersion.indexOf("MSIE 3.03") != -1))
{
document.writeln("This IE version is not supported to run the application.
You can use 4.0 with SP1.");
}

else
if(navigator.appName=="Netscape" && (version == "3.0 " || version ==
3.01 || version == 4.04 )){
document.writeln("Netscape version ", version, " is not supported to
run this application. You can use Netscape 4.01, 4.02, 4.03, or 4.05")
}

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
b***@MIX.COM
2014-03-14 16:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Kaye
And I'm still trying to figure out why my XP's spooler subsystem keeps
wanting to talk to the network when I'm not printing anything.
SNMP, perhaps?

Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
Steve Pope
2014-03-14 01:22:03 UTC
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Post by Bhairitu
Or you can open the Task Manager and look at the network communication.
Task Manager should just add "NSA" headings for the fractions of CPU usage
and network bandwidth.


Steve
Steve Pope
2014-03-14 00:00:56 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
(*) I have a number of customers who have me check their computers on a
regular schedule, to be sure that everything is optimum, and I can't say
I've ever seen a polite bot that runs totally undetected.
Isn't this tautological?

Steve
David Kaye
2014-03-14 01:14:22 UTC
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Post by Steve Pope
Isn't this tautological?
What I'm getting at is that I see computers all the time that aren't
experiencing any warning signs such as slowdown, crashes, weird things, but
I'm just checking them over to see if there are any unseen problems lurking.
But I don't find anything. When I do find bots there always seems to be
some evident misbehavior associated with it.
Marcus Allen
2014-03-14 04:36:49 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
(*) I have a number of customers who have me check their computers on a
regular schedule, to be sure that everything is optimum, and I can't say
I've ever seen a polite bot that runs totally undetected.
If it was "totally undetected", would you see it? ;-)
David Kaye
2014-03-14 10:25:16 UTC
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Post by Marcus Allen
If it was "totally undetected", would you see it? ;-)
By "totally undetected" I mean that when the average user runs common tools
such as Task Manager, you don't see anything unusual, such as processes
taking a lot of CPU time or unusual amounts of memory.

When I look into a computer that appears to be working well, I usually use
Sysinternals' Process Explorer and TCPView, Nirsoft's CPorts, and Igor Nys's
Process Viewer (PrcView.exe). The latter I like a lot becuase it shows
every DLL called by every process, which you can sort by creation date and
path to the DLL, one of the easiest giveaways of a hidden malware module.

I'm assuming that the Bad Guys aren't going to Microsoft or Apple or Google
and requiring them to insert malware code into their legitimate processes.
If that's the case then all bets are off.
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