Discussion:
Long ethernet runs
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Roy
2015-02-10 15:29:57 UTC
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Hi,

Anyone recommend a solution to a long Ethernet cable (600 feet or os)?
I mentioned a StarTech ADSL convertor earlier but was wondering about
any other solutions out there
David Kaye
2015-02-10 22:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Anyone recommend a solution to a long Ethernet cable (600 feet or os)? I
mentioned a StarTech ADSL convertor earlier but was wondering about any
other solutions out there
I had such a situation. I stuck a router in the middle, LAN to LAN. Worked
fine.



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Roy
2015-02-10 23:44:25 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
Anyone recommend a solution to a long Ethernet cable (600 feet or os)? I
mentioned a StarTech ADSL convertor earlier but was wondering about any
other solutions out there
I had such a situation. I stuck a router in the middle, LAN to LAN. Worked
fine.
The middle is buried under asphalt :-(

I wouldn't have used a router. A simple switch would work fine. No
configuration necessary
David Kaye
2015-02-11 09:55:22 UTC
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Post by Roy
I wouldn't have used a router. A simple switch would work fine. No
configuration necessary
Yeah, but I have a unique situation. I buy TP-Link TL-WR841HP routers at
bulk discount now, and use them as switches, routers, and WAPs. It's a
300Mbps WAP unit (10/100 LAN), which I now install pretty much everywhere.
I configure them at home, bring them in to wherever, plug 'em in. They run
cool, have easy screw slot mounting and rubber feet, and given that there's
not much you can do with 100mw I find their coverage as WAPs to be fantasic.
I replaced a Meraki $250 that was on lease with one of these and it doubled
the wi-fi coverage easily.

If I need more than 4 ports or have a >100Mbps need then of course I buy a
switch.




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Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-12 00:26:47 UTC
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Post by Roy
Anyone recommend a solution to a long Ethernet cable (600 feet or os)?
I mentioned a StarTech ADSL convertor earlier but was wondering about
any other solutions out there
How fast do you want to go, or rather what's the lowest connection
speed you can tolerate? Also do you need full duplex (FDX) or can you
live with half duplex (HDX)?

I've done 900ft over CAT5e at 10 Mbits/sec. I don't recall if it was
HDX or FDX, but I think it was HDX. The only trick was to use an
ethernet switch at both ends, instead of a LAN card. One end was a
"managed" switch, which allowed me to set the speed/protocol, which
was necessary to force the speed down to 10 mbits/sec and force it to
FDX or HDX. It also allowed me to monitor the performance using SNMP.
100Mbits/sec HDX worked, but SNMP monitoring over several days showed
a few errors, which I deemed to be excessive. It was installed and up
for about 10 years(?), with no obvious problems.

One would assume that all ethernet ports have the same tx drive power
and rx sensitivity, but that apparently is not the case. You may need
to pick and choose your endpoint devices.

About 5 years ago, I wired a second 10baseT FDX circuit into the same
CAT5e cable bundle. I was worried about NEXT (near end crosstalk) and
PSNEXT (Power Sum NEXT) which I'm sure were well out of spec. Sure
enough, even at 10baseT speeds, I started to see errors. Since the
data on both pairs were non-orthogonal, that was no surprise. So, I
dragged out a 1000ft roll of CAT6 and tried the same tests in my
palatial office. No crosstalk was observed. CAT7 should have been
even better.

Replacing the CAT5e with CAT6 or CAT7 or adding another cable would
have been easy enough, but the decision makers opted for someone elses
fiber optic solution. That was admittedly the right choice, even
though it cost far more than one additional cable. However, the
certified cable installer scrambled the instructions and failed to
remove the CAT5e cable. Oh well.

At this time, the original system is still running on the original 15
year old CAT5e cable, while the added circuit is running on a fiber to
100baseT converter, with the 2nd line fiber converter unused. It
seems that when running both fiber circuits at the same time, there's
some interaction that causes problems. I have no idea what that might
be and since it's NOT my problem and since they don't want to pay me
to fix it, I have only some bad guesses as to what's wrong.

I've installed several other absurdly long CAT5e runs without
difficulties. As long as the speed is kept down to 10 Mbits/sec, it
seems to work. The key seems to be to carefully select the switches
at both ends. Grab a 1000ft roll of CAT5/6, crimp on some connectors,
and do some testing where you can see what's happening at both ends.
Also, there's quite a bit of garbage CAT5 on the market. I test the
rolls I buy and have found a few bad rolls this way.

600ft should be easy if you have decent cable and hardware.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2015-02-12 01:05:19 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
I've done 900ft over CAT5e at 10 Mbits/sec. I don't recall if it was
HDX or FDX, but I think it was HDX. The only trick was to use an
ethernet switch at both ends, instead of a LAN card.
It's funny; just an hour ago I recommended the two switch solution for
someone who is trying to run the Apple equivalent of Windows Remote Desktop
for managing a computer 100-150 feet away using Cat-5. The mouse seems to
work ok but the video is very slow. I suggested there were probably
collisions and that either switching to Cat-6 or putting a switch at each
end might be the order of the day. I suggested he try the switches first.
He'll get back to me.




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Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-12 02:09:39 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:05:19 -0800, "David Kaye"
Post by David Kaye
Post by Jeff Liebermann
I've done 900ft over CAT5e at 10 Mbits/sec. I don't recall if it was
HDX or FDX, but I think it was HDX. The only trick was to use an
ethernet switch at both ends, instead of a LAN card.
It's funny; just an hour ago I recommended the two switch solution for
someone who is trying to run the Apple equivalent of Windows Remote Desktop
for managing a computer 100-150 feet away using Cat-5. The mouse seems to
work ok but the video is very slow. I suggested there were probably
collisions and that either switching to Cat-6 or putting a switch at each
end might be the order of the day. I suggested he try the switches first.
He'll get back to me.
At 150ft, they should not be seeing significant problems with
collisions. Collision domains should only be a problem if there are
repeaters (hubs) involved in the network:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain>
Switches are nice because they do not forward corrupted or
intentionally trashed packets produced by a switch when it sees a
collison. Hubs (repeaters) spew everything.

Perhaps you mean crosstalk. I don't think 150ft is going to cause
much of a crosstalk problem. When I did my testing many years ago
with 100baseT, I started seeing problems at around 500ft. I don't
recall the exact length as I was connecting various cables and rolls I
had around the office with couplers for testing.

My guess(tm) is that they're running at Gigabit speeds and dealing
with multiple forms of packet loss and corruption. Slow it down and
it should work.

Also, check the wiring for split pairs or other anomalies.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_pair>
If you have a cable certifier, use it. Crap cable and terminations
are all too common. (I'm thinking of buying one as borrowing one has
become a hassle).
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2015-02-12 12:30:16 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
At 150ft, they should not be seeing significant problems with
collisions. Collision domains should only be a problem if there are
He's a friend; I haven't seen what he has connected but I assume it's just
network cards at either end with no switches involved at all. I also don't
know the condition of the Cat-5, except that it's apparently run via conduit
from one building to another. The fact that small data such as text and web
pages load okay but video drags ass, I assumed that it was a collision or
data loss problem based on kind of wire, corroded connections, etc.
Post by Jeff Liebermann
My guess(tm) is that they're running at Gigabit speeds and dealing
with multiple forms of packet loss and corruption. Slow it down and
it should work.
That was my suggestion to him as well, witness the AT&T problem I mentioned
here years ago where the packets stopped dropping when the techie slowed
down AT&T's speed.

Regardless, this is not my project; he's just a friend who asked for ideas.
He'll get back to me at some point.




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David Arnstein
2015-02-13 01:25:40 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
At 150ft, they should not be seeing significant problems with
collisions. Collision domains should only be a problem if there are
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain>
Switches are nice because they do not forward corrupted or
intentionally trashed packets produced by a switch when it sees a
collison. Hubs (repeaters) spew everything.
Do you know where I can buy a small hub? Not switch, hub. They are
scarce. Some wise guy is selling one for $150!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000J4M9
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David Arnstein (00)
arnstein+***@pobox.com {{ }}
^^
Steve Pope
2015-02-13 02:00:22 UTC
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Post by David Arnstein
Do you know where I can buy a small hub? Not switch, hub. They are
scarce. Some wise guy is selling one for $150!
Places like Used Computer Store in Berkeley might have
a few lying around.

Steve
Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-13 06:56:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 01:25:40 +0000 (UTC), David Arnstein
Post by David Arnstein
Do you know where I can buy a small hub? Not switch, hub. They are
scarce. Some wise guy is selling one for $150!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000J4M9
What speed? 10 or 10/100?
10baseT is common enough on eBay:
<www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=10baset+hub>
10/100 is also common. Notice that I had to eliminate anything with
"switch" or "USB" in the description:
<www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=10%2F100+hub+-switch+-USB>
If you're in Santa Cruz, call me and I'll give you something from my
pile. I have some 4 port Netgear Hubs that I can spare.
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Roy
2015-02-13 17:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Liebermann
On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 01:25:40 +0000 (UTC), David Arnstein
Post by David Arnstein
Do you know where I can buy a small hub? Not switch, hub. They are
scarce. Some wise guy is selling one for $150!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000J4M9
What speed? 10 or 10/100?
<www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=10baset+hub>
10/100 is also common. Notice that I had to eliminate anything with
<www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=10%2F100+hub+-switch+-USB>
If you're in Santa Cruz, call me and I'll give you something from my
pile. I have some 4 port Netgear Hubs that I can spare.
10/100 "Hubs" contain a two port switch inside to do the speed change.
Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-13 19:06:00 UTC
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Post by Roy
10/100 "Hubs" contain a two port switch inside to do the speed change.
Some might, but the one's I've played with (mostly Netgear) use NWAY
negotiation in the interface chip to set the port speed and protocol,
and then internally repeat everything to all the other ports. That's
the key to its operation as a sniffer. It retransmits everything
including trashed and corrupted packets. I wouldn't use one in a live
network, but they're great for sniffing and traffic monitoring
(ethertap).
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2015-02-13 07:07:15 UTC
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Post by David Arnstein
Do you know where I can buy a small hub? Not switch, hub. They are
scarce. Some wise guy is selling one for $150!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000J4M9
I'm unclear as to why you'd use a hub. Is it for simultaneously
broadcasting the same content to a bunch of displays at once? I'm very
curious.




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David Arnstein
2015-02-13 19:10:34 UTC
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Post by David Kaye
I'm unclear as to why you'd use a hub. Is it for simultaneously
broadcasting the same content to a bunch of displays at once? I'm very
curious.
The need arises when I use network analyzer software on a peecee. For
example, https://www.wireshark.org/. In such a situation, I would want
the peecee to get all the traffic on a network, including traffic whose
source and destination are not the peecee. So I would plug all the
devices I want to test into the hub.
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David Arnstein (00)
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^^
Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-13 19:16:53 UTC
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On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 19:10:34 +0000 (UTC), David Arnstein
Post by David Arnstein
The need arises when I use network analyzer software on a peecee. For
example, https://www.wireshark.org/. In such a situation, I would want
the peecee to get all the traffic on a network, including traffic whose
source and destination are not the peecee. So I would plug all the
devices I want to test into the hub.
You might consider building a passive network tap like these:
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Passive-Network-Tap/>
<http://dnlongen.blogspot.com/2014/09/how-to-build-10-network-tap.html>
or buying one:
<https://greatscottgadgets.com/throwingstar/>
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Arnstein
2015-02-14 01:39:53 UTC
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Post by Jeff Liebermann
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Passive-Network-Tap/>
<http://dnlongen.blogspot.com/2014/09/how-to-build-10-network-tap.html>
<https://greatscottgadgets.com/throwingstar/>
These gadgets are limited to 100 Mbit/s. So what advantage do they
offer over a regular hub?
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arnstein+***@pobox.com {{ }}
^^
Jeff Liebermann
2015-02-14 02:05:17 UTC
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On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 01:39:53 +0000 (UTC), David Arnstein
Post by David Arnstein
Post by Jeff Liebermann
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Passive-Network-Tap/>
<http://dnlongen.blogspot.com/2014/09/how-to-build-10-network-tap.html>
<https://greatscottgadgets.com/throwingstar/>
These gadgets are limited to 100 Mbit/s. So what advantage do they
offer over a regular hub?
A regular hub at 10baseTX or 1000baseT ? I don't know of any Gigabit
hubs.

The main advantage is that it very portable. The down side is that
all the ports have to run at the same speed or nothing works. That
means you can't sniff a mixture of 10 and 100 Mbit/sec devices. It
also means you can only sniff through traffic, which is a problem if
you want to look at more than one device. That requires a real hub.

Gigabit sniffing is another problem. You can either slow down the
interfaces to 100 Mbits/sec (using the two 220pf caps), which hides
many problems, or buy an overpriced managed gigabit switch with a
monitoring port. I haven't seen any gigabit hubs.

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. Simple sniffing is
easily done with a passive tap. More complexity requires a hub.
Gigabit and fiber requires a designed for purpose ethertap.
<http://www.usr.com/en/products/networking-taps/usr4515/>
<http://www.flukenetworks.com/enterprise-network/network-monitoring/Tap-Solutions>
<http://www.dual-comm.com>
etc...
--
Jeff Liebermann ***@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
David Kaye
2015-02-13 22:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Arnstein
The need arises when I use network analyzer software on a peecee. For
example, https://www.wireshark.org/. In such a situation, I would want
the peecee to get all the traffic on a network, including traffic whose
source and destination are not the peecee. So I would plug all the
devices I want to test into the hub.
Ahhhh...now I getcha. Thanks for the explanation.




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Julian Macassey
2015-02-22 23:44:15 UTC
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Post by Roy
Hi,
Anyone recommend a solution to a long Ethernet cable (600 feet or os)?
I mentioned a StarTech ADSL convertor earlier but was wondering about
any other solutions out there
Fibre.

No loss, no static build up, lightning proof (mostly).
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