Discussion:
Verizon and AT&T leaving landline phone networks to rot
(too old to reply)
Thad Floryan
2014-05-16 00:30:41 UTC
Permalink
The following URL appeared in comp.dcom.telecom earlier today:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/

I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).

FWIW, Ooma's speed test (using Ookla) is here:

http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test

A 91kB JPEG of my speed test results is viewable here:

Loading Image...

My Internet connection is with Comcast.

Thad
sms
2014-05-16 01:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test
http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Ooma_speed_test_20140515-1712.jpg
My Internet connection is with Comcast.
Thad
Sadly, I think that I'm going to have to bid Sonic a fond farewell soon
and move to one of the evil empires (Comcast).
Steve Pope
2014-05-16 01:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
This correlates with my experience, which is that for the past
six months ATT has been sending multiple letters that say something to the
effect of "you must switch to fiber by <insert phony deadline date>".

I have ignored them and nothing has happened.
Post by Thad Floryan
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
Personally I intend to hang onto my two landlines as long as possible.


Steve
Thad Floryan
2014-05-16 02:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Pope
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
This correlates with my experience, which is that for the past
six months ATT has been sending multiple letters that say something to the
effect of "you must switch to fiber by <insert phony deadline date>".
I have ignored them and nothing has happened.
Post by Thad Floryan
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
Personally I intend to hang onto my two landlines as long as possible.
[...]
Hi Steve,

Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?

Thad
Steve Pope
2014-05-16 16:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?
Not sure. There is an increasing number of cables going up
on the poles all the time. But, I have not specifically
heard there is fiber.


Steve
Bhairitu
2014-05-16 18:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Pope
Post by Thad Floryan
Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?
Not sure. There is an increasing number of cables going up
on the poles all the time. But, I have not specifically
heard there is fiber.
Steve
When they put U-Verse fiber in Martinez (which should have municipal
fiber but the council is too lame for that) the "beige box" was about
1/2 mile away and now there is one around the corner. It's fiber to
there and copper the rest of the way to the house. They took out the
second line last year which I assume was for POTS. I had already switch
so probably didn't get a notice that POTS would be dropped as I've heard
happen in other areas like Oakland.

I've seen Astound vans doing installations about two blocks away north
of 4 but seems at the moment they haven't brought their cable south of 4.

If you want to see a lot of junk mail and spam just wait until another
broadband provider comes into your neighborhood.
Keith Keller
2014-05-16 18:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?
I have seen signs for AT&T to put fiber in my neighborhood
(Excelsior, San Francisco). But I haven't seen anything that would
indicate that it's been finished. Presumably when it is ready AT&T will
spam our neighborhood with offers to switch (and quite frankly I'd
consider it for consumer tasks, though I'd keep Sonic for server
traffic).

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Roy
2014-05-16 19:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Keller
Post by Thad Floryan
Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?
I have seen signs for AT&T to put fiber in my neighborhood
(Excelsior, San Francisco). But I haven't seen anything that would
indicate that it's been finished. Presumably when it is ready AT&T will
spam our neighborhood with offers to switch (and quite frankly I'd
consider it for consumer tasks, though I'd keep Sonic for server
traffic).
--keith
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
Keith Keller
2014-05-16 20:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
I never said otherwise. I'll still keep Sonic over copper, because AT&T
would likely have draconian policies against running servers on their
consumer fiber and crappy AT&T support staff.

Sonic is building out fiber--they had a project scheduled for the
Sunset--but they'll almost certainly build out much more slowly than
AT&T and Verizon.

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Kevin McMurtrie
2014-05-17 04:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Keller
Post by Roy
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
I never said otherwise. I'll still keep Sonic over copper, because AT&T
would likely have draconian policies against running servers on their
consumer fiber and crappy AT&T support staff.
Sonic is building out fiber--they had a project scheduled for the
Sunset--but they'll almost certainly build out much more slowly than
AT&T and Verizon.
--keith
I don't understand Sonic's fiber rollout. If the project is really
profitable and people really want it, then where's the investment money
to get it going? Rolling out a new neighborhood every 5 years will
never amount to meaningful coverage.

I have mixed feelings about cities begging Google for fiber. It's
progress but Google's moneymaker is data collection. No monthly service
fee will keep the fiber lit once Google is no longer getting valuable
marketing data from it.
Keith Keller
2014-05-17 04:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin McMurtrie
I don't understand Sonic's fiber rollout. If the project is really
profitable and people really want it, then where's the investment money
to get it going? Rolling out a new neighborhood every 5 years will
never amount to meaningful coverage.
Honestly? I really don't know. I think they are concerned about
putting fiber into a neighborhood, then getting pushed out by AT&T and
Verizon. But that's a WAG.
Post by Kevin McMurtrie
I have mixed feelings about cities begging Google for fiber. It's
progress but Google's moneymaker is data collection. No monthly service
fee will keep the fiber lit once Google is no longer getting valuable
marketing data from it.
I suspect that the cities' hope is that Google will continue to get
marketing data from it long-term. I don't know if that's a reasonable
hope. Or maybe they're hoping Google will turn the fiber over to the
city (or will otherwise have a method of gaining ownership), and by
some minor miracle the city will come up with the money to run it.

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
Steve Pope
2014-05-23 02:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Keller
Post by Roy
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
I never said otherwise. I'll still keep Sonic over copper, because AT&T
would likely have draconian policies against running servers on their
consumer fiber and crappy AT&T support staff.
In the six years from here to 2020, I do not think copper is going
to atrophy much more than it already has.

Steve
Otto Pylot
2014-05-23 17:54:18 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Roy
Post by Keith Keller
Post by Thad Floryan
Just out of pure curiosity, has AT&T implemented fiber in your
community [running side-by-side with landlines]?
I have seen signs for AT&T to put fiber in my neighborhood
(Excelsior, San Francisco). But I haven't seen anything that would
indicate that it's been finished. Presumably when it is ready AT&T will
spam our neighborhood with offers to switch (and quite frankly I'd
consider it for consumer tasks, though I'd keep Sonic for server
traffic).
--keith
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
I asked Sonic about this and Dane replied saying that AT&T will
eventually stop supporting POTS at the CO but as long as Sonic has the
lines, they (Sonic) will continue to support and maintain the old AT&T
copper. Nothing lasts forever but I think those of us on Fusion copper
will be ok for quite some time.
--
Deja Moo: I've seen this bullshit before. Please respond to: ***@invalid.net
replacing invalid with sonic.
Steve Pope
2014-05-23 19:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Otto Pylot
I asked Sonic about this and Dane replied saying that AT&T will
eventually stop supporting POTS at the CO but as long as Sonic has the
lines, they (Sonic) will continue to support and maintain the old AT&T
copper. Nothing lasts forever but I think those of us on Fusion copper
will be ok for quite some time.
This suggests I may want to convert my ATT copper/phone/DSL line
to Sonic. Otherwise ATT will yank the copper.

(I have a second line already on Sonic.)


Steve
Rob Warnock
2014-05-24 12:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Otto Pylot <***@bogus.address.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Roy <***@aa4re.ampr.org> wrote:
| > Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
| > copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
|
| I asked Sonic about this and Dane replied saying that AT&T will
| eventually stop supporting POTS at the CO but as long as Sonic has the
| lines, they (Sonic) will continue to support and maintain the old AT&T
| copper. Nothing lasts forever but I think those of us on Fusion copper
| will be ok for quite some time.
+---------------

Good to know, thanks! I just switched to Sonic a year ago[1],
and was already starting to worry about what happens when
AT&T stops maintaining the copper pairs back to their CO.


-Rob

[1] Dropped Speakeasy ADSL2 and two[2] AT&T POTS lines for one
Sonic.net "Fusion" ADSL2+POTS. Even with the ~$10/mo for
"taxes & fess" and $10/mo for four static IPs, I ended up
saving nearly $200/mo! And I no longer have to worry about
"Zone 2" & "Zone 3" charges for local calls, not to mention
long-distance (now free).

[2] Longer needed the 2nd POTS line anyway -- it was a "modem"
line, which hadn't been used in years!

-----
Rob Warnock <***@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403
Thad Floryan
2014-05-24 20:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Warnock
+---------------
| > Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
| > copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
|
| I asked Sonic about this and Dane replied saying that AT&T will
| eventually stop supporting POTS at the CO but as long as Sonic has the
| lines, they (Sonic) will continue to support and maintain the old AT&T
| copper. Nothing lasts forever but I think those of us on Fusion copper
| will be ok for quite some time.
+---------------
Good to know, thanks! I just switched to Sonic a year ago[1],
and was already starting to worry about what happens when
AT&T stops maintaining the copper pairs back to their CO.
Hi Rob,

Your address (below) in your sig places you very close to the
CO which is on 28th Avenue about 150 feet West from El Camino.

In 2000 when I setup Sigaba ( http://sigaba.com now redirects to
ProofPoint which acquired Sigaba's IP (Intellectual Property)),
I built out 1/4 of the property at 2727 El Camino as you can see
on this pic of my Sigaba business cards:

Loading Image... 67kB

which included setting up DSL from [then] PacBell; inbound was a
solid 6Mbps. As the company grew I moved it all to the Crossoads
facility -- the 5, 9 and 10 story complex at CA Hwy 92 and 101 --
to the top, 10th, floor. Fantastic views of the Bay Area from my
office.

What did Sigaba do? "Securing Internet Communications" as you can
see on the ten Hummers we used at CES 2001 in Las Vegas after the
"launch party" in 2000 aboard (and also at a nearby restaurant) the
USS Pampanito sub at Fisherman's Wharf:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pampanito_%28SS-383%29

Loading Image... 87kB 2000
Loading Image... 169kB 2001, Las Vegas
Loading Image... 196kB 2001, Las Vegas

The company name, Sigaba, was chosen because the WW-II encryption
machine of that name was the only such system never compromised vs
the German's Enigma machine which was compromised:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGABA

Visitors from the NSA brought the code wheels for the SIGABA to the
launch party, inserted them in the only publicly-displayed SIGABA
machine which is still on the sub AFAIK, and we encrypted our names.

Heh, the marketing department gave out some 1000 DVD copies of the
2000 movie "U-571": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141926/ at the
CES in Las Vegas in 2001.

:-)
Post by Rob Warnock
Rob Warnock
627 26th Avenue
San Mateo, CA 94403
Thad
Thad Floryan
2014-05-24 21:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
[...]
What did Sigaba do? "Securing Internet Communications" as you can
[...]
I almost forgot I still had a copy of this 28kB file online:

http://thadlabs.com/FILES/Thad_San_Jose_colo_2006.07.10.pdf

which is a diagram of Sigaba's San Jose data center (another was
on the East Coast in Virginia near Washington DC) after downsizing
by 50% after Sigaba's product lines changed and before bellying-up.

The diagram may give others ideas as to what I considered to be a
very secure setup (noting the original larger design was from 2000).

Thad

Keith Keller
2014-05-23 18:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy
Unless you have Sonic fiber, any Sonic service is relying on AT&T
copper. As copper to the CO atrophies, so goes Sonic.
If Sonic pulls fiber to my area I'll be the first to sign up!

--keith
--
kkeller-***@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information
David Kaye
2014-05-23 19:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Keller
If Sonic pulls fiber to my area I'll be the first to sign up!
--keith
Likewise, and I'll overlook the fact that it took no fewer than 4 Zyxel
bonded modems to correct their horrible throughput problems one of my
customers had. Even with all that problem and the tech's refusal to believe
that so my Zyxels would be bad, they were always courteous, helpful, and
prompt.




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Tim May
2014-05-23 07:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Pope
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
This correlates with my experience, which is that for the past
six months ATT has been sending multiple letters that say something to the
effect of "you must switch to fiber by <insert phony deadline date>".
I have ignored them and nothing has happened.
I'm still waiting for those Global Crossing trucks to lay cable to my area.

I lived, and wrote much with, dial-up modem service until 2008. 49K was
rarely seen, so my modem usually fell back to around 38K.

For text, for reading and writing, even for Alta Vist and then Google
searching, it was OK. The killer was all the adware/spam crap that
dragged every page refresh down into a steaming heap of ghetto crap.

Cable was not interesting in stringing a cable to my house. They
understandably cherry-picked the least-expensive neighborhoods.

Satellite was an option, but too slow for the price (Wild Blue, later
named somethting else, and Hughes). I had a line of sight with a tower
for Etheric Networks, and almost signed-on with them.

Then DSL finally arrived. In 2008.

No talk of fiber, no ads locally for U-Verse, nothing from Verizon.

Doesn't really bother me. At about 6 Mbps down, 1.5 up, plus DirectTV
for HBO and all, it's livable.
Post by Steve Pope
Post by Thad Floryan
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
Personally I intend to hang onto my two landlines as long as possible.
I keep a landline out of habit, but mainly use my 4G/LTE iPhone for
voice calls. Have used Skype and Apple's video thing a few times.

Nobody is urging me to switch to fiber, and I don't bother call them
asking for it. I know it will be many years before the state monopolies
offer fiber to my area.
--
Tim May
Roy
2014-05-16 16:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test
http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Ooma_speed_test_20140515-1712.jpg
My Internet connection is with Comcast.
Thad
The speed test doesn't work here. There are no instructions on how to
use it and when it finally gets started, it just hangs saying
"Reliability Test 100% complete"

An ooops for OOMA
Thad Floryan
2014-05-17 02:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test
http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Ooma_speed_test_20140515-1712.jpg
My Internet connection is with Comcast.
The speed test doesn't work here. There are no instructions on how to
use it and when it finally gets started, it just hangs saying
"Reliability Test 100% complete"
An ooops for OOMA
Hi Roy,

That's really odd. If it wouldn't work for "anyone", that "anyone"
would be me given how many things I block. In fact, I never could
use any of Ookla's speed tests in the past and was very surprised
when it worked yesterday.

You can see my speed test results from yesterday above. Here are
today's just a few minutes ago at 7:30pm per:

1. Loading Image... 70kB
2. Loading Image... 77kB
3. Loading Image... 83kB

Picture descriptions:

1. "... Click the Begin Test button". Button blocked by FlashBlock
which I clicked to clear and display the button as seen in pic 2
2. see the Traffic Light and the [ Begin Test ] button
3. see today's results with minor differences from yesterday

Thad
Bhairitu
2014-05-16 18:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test
http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Ooma_speed_test_20140515-1712.jpg
My Internet connection is with Comcast.
Thad
Frankly after getting VoIP with U-Verse my phone bill dropped from
nearly $50 with copper and no toll coverage and not much of a long
distance plan to $25 with no tolls and plenty of long distance for me.
Last year they took out the second line on the poles which was probably
for POTS.

I'm sure one can still do better pricewise with VoIP but until Astound
puts their line in this neighborhood I'll stay with AT&T but will
protest their actions.
SMS
2014-05-23 14:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thad Floryan
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/verizon-att-forcing-customers-off-landline-phones-complaint-says/
I suppose this means that one should either go cellphone-only or choose
a VoIP service "soon" (perhaps by 2015).
http://www.ooma.com/support/internet-speed-test
http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Ooma_speed_test_20140515-1712.jpg
My Internet connection is with Comcast.
Thad
Just saw something in the paper today that AT&T is considering fiber to
the home in some areas of the country, my city being one of them. No
doubt they were terrified of Google's fiber plans so they came up with
their own plan.
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